Circling The Arguments (SCO thread v. 32)

[Quipling]

Previous Threads

Spoiler

1. Don Jr. Confirms Trump Tower "adoption" meeting w/ kushner, Manafort
2. Gowdy Excoriates Trump
3. Trump Fixates on Leakers
4. Cover of Time
5. "Nothing Illegal"
6. Probe
7. "Nothingburger"
8. Royale With Cheese
9. First Charges
10. One Guilty Plea, Two Indictments
11. This is it Megathread
12. From Mueller with Love
13. Bob Mueller's Thirteen Russian Burgers
14. Conspiracy is a Gates-way Drug
15. Nunberg, not Nothingburger
16. Urine Trouble
17. Tamper Tantrum
18. The investigation just GRU
19. Mid-air Collusion
20. Just a Cohencidence
21. Pecker Problems
22. Patton the Back
23. Manafort Pleas, Thank You
24. Ferris Mueller's Election Off
25. Use it in a Sentence
26. Flynn Cohen to Prison
27. Perjuring the Swamp
28. Get me Roger Stone
29. Gagging For It
30. Report Embarrgo
31. Summery in March

Current big news:

• Mueller has submitted a report to the AG. AG Barr's summary of the report is available here: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/03/24/us/politics/barr-letter-mueller-report.html. Mueller's report (per Barr's summary) concludes that there was not enough evidence that members of the Trump campaign assisted Russians in illegal activities to support a finding of collusion. Barr's summary further concludes that Trump's interference into the investigation is did not have the "corrupt intent" necessary for an OOJ charge.

Mod note from previous thread: Please post in here with regards to the subject at hand. Any general chat can go in the WR Lounge thread.

Spoiler

Just to be clear, going forward, these type of posts also count of derailing:
1. Talking about how the thread is derailed/ how mods should handle a situation (report and continue on topic discussions)
2. Joking about posters who are reply banned from the thread
3. Posts with only flaming that do not have any other information about the topic
4. A reply to any of the above

Stop doing these. This isn't some game of getting each other reply bans and infractions. Just stay on topic, report when needed. We have the WR OT for posts like the ones above but they have no place in a normal thread.

Major events so far:

• Manafort, Trump's campaign manager and transition committee member has been indicted arising from misconduct reaching into 2017 related to payments received through 2014 from the pro-russia faction of Ukraine's pre-war government. Manafort pleaded guilty, agreed to cooperate with federal prosecutors, and then lied to them.
• Roger Stone has been charged with Obstruction, Lying to Investigators, and Witness Tampering. This is in connection with an investigation into his contacts with WikiLeaks and the dissemination of info from the DNC and Clinton hacks. He is now subject to a gag order.
  
• Michael Cohen, Trump's attorney, has pleaded guilty to campaign finance violations, which he claims to have committed at Trump's direction to influence the election. Cohen cooperated with federal prosecutors and received a 3-year sentence.
• Allen Weisselberg, the Trump Org. CFO, has agreed to immunity in exchange for cooperating with federal prosecutors
• Rick Gates has pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI and conspiring (with Manafort) to commiting tax fraud, failing to register as a foreign agent, and lying to the FBI
• George Papadopolous pleaded guilty to lying to federal investigators in 2017 about activities occuring 2016-17. Admits to meeting with various Russian officials regarding setting up meetings and "dirt" on Hillary while acting on behalf of the Trump campaign, something he previously denied. Papadopoulos is now accusing Mifsud of being a deep state plant on Twitter.
• Mike Flynn, Trump's National Security Advisor, has also pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about several meetings that he had with the Russian ambassador. Flynn was allegedly involved in other business involving Turkey, but has not yet been charged with respect to that behavior.
• 13 Russian indictment for activity starting in 2014 and continuing through 2017. A US citizen pleaded guilty for agreeing to help them. There is also a separate 12 count indictment targeting GRU officers
• An attorney linked to Manafort, Gates, and a Russian oligarch has pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI
• Yohai, Manafort's former son-in-law has agreed to cooperate with the Justice Department
• Daniels's lawsuit has somehow, insanely, gotten linked up to the Mueller investigation thanks to alleged wrongdoing and influence-peddling by Michael Cohen. Who has pleaded guilty and offered to fully cooperate.
• Twelve Russian intelligence officers have been indicted for conspiracy against the United States and aggravated identity theft
• Bruce Ohr, of dossier fame, has been working to obtain information from Russian oligarchs since 2014.
• Documents relating to Manafort's guilty plea implicate Tony Podesta. Tony Podesta is the brother of Clinton's campaign advisor, John Podesta. His former firm, which is now cooperating with the probe, worked for Manafort in Ukraine.

Dumb talking points:

Spoiler

Why hasn't anybody been charged with "collusion"?
Collusion is a catch-all term. It's not the name of a specific crime.

So where is the Collusion?
The Mueller investigation is about any links between "the Russian Government and individuals associated with the campaign of Donald Trump". It's beyond question that there were links, so the issue was whether those links amounted to collusion.

The Barr summary concludes that, although the Russian government stole intelligence in order to interfere with the election, and reached out to members of the Trump campaign, the Trump campaign did not assist the Russian government in that interference-it merely reaped the benefits of it. Per Barr's analysis, this passive acceptance stops short of collusion.

These are "process crimes", so they don't really count.
First, there isn't a judge in this country who believes that things like obstruction and witness tampering aren't serious crimes. The distinction between "process" crimes and other felonies is meaningless. Second, a significant amount of charged conduct goes well beyond "process." Third, there is definitely a great deal of uncharged or sealed conduct that goes beyond "process"-as shown by the failed redaction in Manafort's recent filing.

[/QUOTE]

 

[abiG]

All 32 of these threads are dumb talking points.

There was no collusion, but for Hillary.

 

[luckyshot]

All 32 of these threads are dumb talking points.

There was no collusion, but for Hillary.

"Russia, if you are listening, I hope you are able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing. I think you will probably be rewarded mightily [...] I'd love to see them."

Trump has trained you marmots to yell "No collusion!" as if that's the end of the discussion-- just ignoring the fact that Russia clearly helped him, and he clearly had no problem accepting Russia's help.

From OP:
The Barr summary concludes that, although the Russian government stole intelligence in order to interfere with the election, and reached out to members of the Trump campaign, the Trump campaign did not assist the Russian government in that interference-it merely reaped the benefits of it. Per Barr's analysis, this passive acceptance stops short of collusion.

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

Sorry leftists, it's all over but the crying....



President Trump was completely vindicated on the Russian collusion conspiracy hoax.

This is a time for those who believed a lie for three solid years to begin some serious self-examination.

 

[MikeMcMann]

"The Barr summary concludes that, although the Russian government stole intelligence in order to interfere with the election, and reached out to members of the Trump campaign, the Trump campaign did not assist the Russian government in that interference-it merely reaped the benefits of it. Per Barr's analysis, this passive acceptance stops short of collusion."

Trump has trained you marmots to yell "No collusion!" to anything short of a video or him and Putin shaking hands saying, "With this our bond is sealed."

Yup.

And labelling it 'passive acceptance' in light of Trump's Campaign Chair, Manafort, actively handing over key internal polling data to help the Russians refine and target their campaign to certain districts, is a stretch.

 

[HereticBD]

BREAKING NEWS: NO COLLUSION!


/thread

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

BREAKING NEWS: NO COLLUSION!


/thread

Unfortunately, so many leftists are still in the varying stages of grief after no new indictments were handed down, that it's going to be very hard to get them to move on.

The problem is the leftists want to believe the Russian collusion conspiracy hoax is true. You're not going to be able to reason these leftists out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

Without the slightest bit of hyperbole, belief in the Russian collusion conspiracy hoax constitutes a real Mental Health crisis for portions of the American population.

 

[luckyshot]

Unfortunately, so many leftists are still in the varying stages of grief after no new indictments were handed down, that it's going to be very hard to get them to move on.

The problem is the leftists want to believe the Russian collusion conspiracy hoax is true. You're not going to be able to reason these leftists out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

Without the slightest bit of hyperbole, belief in the Russian collusion conspiracy hoax constitutes a real Mental Health crisis for portions of the American population.

So, the seven guilty please and 25 indictments didn't happen right?

If all this information came out at once, it would be regarded as one of the largest scandals in US political history. Instead, it got spread out over three years, giving Republicans time to constantly lower the bar until-- when there wasn't one final climax to the investigation-- you just declare that nothing happened.

GTFO of here with that shit thinking. Unfortunately, that will fly with the ADHD mainstream culture, but it won't fly in here.

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

So, the seven guilty please and 25 indictments didn't happen right?

If all these indictments came out at once, it would be among the largest scandals in the history of the US Presidency. Instead, it got spread out over three years, giving Republicans time to constantly lower the bar until-- when there wasn't one final climax to the investigation-- you just declare that nothing happened.

GTFO of here with that shit thinking. Unfortunately, that will fly with the ADHD mainstream culture, but it won't fly in here.

None of this has anything to do with the Russian collusion conspiracy hoax.

This is like someone setting out on an elephant hunt, but was only able to bag a dozen squirrels, yet still calls their elephant hunt a success. Showing everyone your dozen squirrels isn't going to shield you from the reality that you failed at your elephant hunt.

Beyond that, at this point any inference that the President colluded with the Russian government is extremists and dangerous language and should no longer be tolerated.

 

[luckyshot]

This is like someone setting out on an elephant hunt, but was only able to bag a dozen squirrels, yet still calls their elephant hunt a success. Showing everyone your dozen squirrels isn't going to shield you from the reality that you failed at your elephant hunt.

Beyond that, at this point any inference that the President colluded with the Russian government is extremists and dangerous language and should no longer be tolerated.

No. It's like someone setting out to investigate whether there was wrongdoing and inappropriate conduct between the President and a foreign power, and finding out there there was inappropriate conduct between many high profile individuals in the President's close circle a foreign power.

Shitty analogies are a hallmark of shitty thinking.

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

No. It's like someone setting out to investigate whether there was wrongdoing and inappropriate conduct between the President and a foreign power

And none was ever found.




President Trump has been completely vindicated.

That's a lovely list of a bunch of people who aren't President Trump you've got there.

 

[WhiteMousse]

Okay I still don't understand what's going on with this.

I really don't. There are two aspects of which I'm aware that seem to indicate a possible contradiction:
1) Investigation came back saying no collusion.
2) A large number of indictments, several of which have resulted in plea deals.

I'm not saying these two things are mutually exclusive but they certainly seem that way.

Someone shed some light on this for me.

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

Okay I still don't understand what's going on with this.

I really don't. There are two aspects of which I'm aware that seem to indicate a possible contradiction:
1) Investigation came back saying no collusion.
2) A large number of indictments, several of which have resulted in plea deals.

I'm not saying these two things are mutually exclusive but they certainly seem that way.

Someone shed some light on this for me.

Don't be surprised when the local witch hunter in an attempt to justify their own existence, ends up finding/making a few witches.

 

[Bloody Pulp]

Okay I still don't understand what's going on with this.

I really don't. There are two aspects of which I'm aware that seem to indicate a possible contradiction:
1) Investigation came back saying no collusion.
2) A large number of indictments, several of which have resulted in plea deals.

I'm not saying these two things are mutually exclusive but they certainly seem that way.

Someone shed some light on this for me.

None of the indictments were related to collusion.

 

[MikeMcMann]

None of this has anything to do with the Russian collusion conspiracy hoax.

This is like someone setting out on an elephant hunt, but was only able to bag a dozen squirrels, yet still calls their elephant hunt a success. Showing everyone your dozen squirrels isn't going to shield you from the reality that you failed at your elephant hunt.

Beyond that, at this point any inference that the President colluded with the Russian government is extremists and dangerous language and should no longer be tolerated.

Haha.

This nonsense again that you prior got so owned on.

You asked my prior if I knew what the Mueller Mandate was as you suggested it was the same as going hunting for elephants and getting squirrels.

I quoted to you EXACTLY what the Mueller Mandate was which was:

- based on suspected Russian interference in the Electionè, verify that if true
- Determine if Trump and/or Trump Campaign folk had "Links" or "coordination" with Russia they may not be disclosing or lying about.


The Mueller investigation established both to a a degree no one would have imagined prior. It would not be possible for him to have been more on point. They caught up a whole herd of elephants and your need to lie about that is amusing.

 

[MikeMcMann]

No. It's like someone setting out to investigate whether there was wrongdoing and inappropriate conduct between the President and a foreign power and finding out there there was inappropriate conduct between many high profile individuals in the President's close circle a foreign power.

Shitty analogies are a hallmark of shitty thinking.

And lets not forget Trumps own "links" and "coordination" with Russia now we know he was pursing massive finance deals and personal enrichment to the tune of hundreds of millions for Trump Tower Moscow.

Even if all the Russia "links" and "coordination" that has been proven does not rise to the level a prosecutor thinks he could get a conviction on it, as intent is almost impossible to prove without some leaked statement, there was no reason for all these people around Trump and himself to lie other than they thought that, in a very close election, it could maybe cost them votes with some traditional Anti-Russia republicans if they found out.

so they held it back to try and sway the election. That is something only Congress can look at and determine what action needs to be taken as it is grossly unethical at best.

 

[MikeMcMann]

None of the indictments were related to collusion.

"Collusion" does not exist as a chargeable offense so you were never going to get that.

What many of them were for was for "links" or "coordination" (elements of collusion) with Russia, and many people were found guilty for just that.

 

[Not A Theist]

So, what are people waiting for now? And what will they be waiting for after that comes out?

 

[zebby23]

Sorry leftists, it's all over but the crying....



President Trump was completely vindicated on the Russian collusion conspiracy hoax.

This is a time for those who believed a lie for three solid years to begin some serious self-examination.

You have something wrong with you...

Fox News got your brain like mush

 

[computer fogie]

...President Trump has been completely vindicated...

To be more accurate, and I'm only using Barr's words here, Mueller's report contains evidence that he did commit obstruction of justice (and that he did not). Barr has decided that he will not pursue obstruction charges against Trump, so in that sense Barr has decided to vindicate him of that charge. "Complete vindication" would be if the report did not find any evidence of wrongdoing on Trump's part.

Trump is under investigation by the SDNY, and we don't know yet where that will lead. I suspect nowhere, but we don't know yet. He could still be found to have committed other crimes, so hang on to that champagne a little longer.