Circling The Arguments (SCO thread v. 32)

[Quipling]

Okay I still don't understand what's going on with this.

I really don't. There are two aspects of which I'm aware that seem to indicate a possible contradiction:
1) Investigation came back saying no collusion.
2) A large number of indictments, several of which have resulted in plea deals.

I'm not saying these two things are mutually exclusive but they certainly seem that way.

Someone shed some light on this for me.

Simple answer:
although people were focused on "collusion", the actual scope of the investigation from the start was broader than "did Trump collude." So you have indictments that fit in the non-collusion parts of the investigation.

Longer answer:
The original basis of the SCO was to investigate:

1.) the scope of election interference by the Russian Government

2.) any links and/or coordination between Russian Government and individuals associated with the campaign of Donald Trump

3.) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation

The investigation found substantial election interference by the Russian government. Barr discusses it in part one of his summary.

It also found links between individuals associated with Trump's campaign and the Russian government, and a number of ancillary crimes while investigating the above ("any other matters"). Thus, lots of indictments and convictions.

What it apparently did not find was (sufficient) evidence to conclude that individuals associated with the Trump campaign colluded with the Russian government (which it interpreted as a criminal conspiracy) in the election interference. This is in part two of the summary.

 

[Quipling]

Yup.

And labelling it 'passive acceptance' in light of Trump's Campaign Chair, Manafort, actively handing over key internal polling data to help the Russians refine and target their campaign to certain districts, is a stretch.

Part of the reason I'm labeling it that is because the bolded section is speculative. It has a solid foundation-Kilminick has ties to Russian intelligence and it's not clear what other purpose the polling data would have served-but it's still speculation.

 

[method115]

What it apparently did not find was (sufficient) evidence to conclude that individuals associated with the Trump campaign colluded with the Russian government (which it interpreted as a criminal conspiracy) in the election interference.

Where did you get the "sufficient" part from. I read Barr's report but I didn't see that except under the OOJ part. When it came to collusion it was straight forward in saying that not only did they not collude with Russia they refused Russia's help multiple times. Which is something I see left out which is pretty important if you ask me.

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

Haha.

This nonsense again that you prior got so owned on.

You asked my prior if I knew what the Mueller Mandate was as you suggested it was the same as going hunting for elephants and getting squirrels.

I quoted to you EXACTLY what the Mueller Mandate was which was:

- based on suspected Russian interference in the Electionè, verify that if true
- Determine if Trump and/or Trump Campaign folk had "Links" or "coordination" with Russia they may not be disclosing or lying about.


The Mueller investigation established both to a a degree no one would have imagined prior. It would not be possible for him to have been more on point. They caught up a whole herd of elephants and your need to lie about that is amusing.

Again, this is you holding up a dozen metaphorical squirrels, and claiming a successful elephant hunt.

The entire purpose of the Russian collusion conspiracy hoax was to remove President Trump from power. It failed.

If you want to pretend that wasn't the primary goal, then I'll leave you to your delusions.

President Trump wins again.

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

And lets not forget Trumps own "links" and "coordination" with Russia now we know he was pursing massive finance deals and personal enrichment to the tune of hundreds of millions for Trump Tower Moscow.

Even if all the Russia "links" and "coordination" that has been proven does not rise to the level a prosecutor thinks he could get a conviction on it, as intent is almost impossible to prove without some leaked statement, there was no reason for all these people around Trump and himself to lie other than they thought that, in a very close election, it could maybe cost them votes with some traditional Anti-Russia republicans if they found out.

so they held it back to try and sway the election. That is something only Congress can look at and determine what action needs to be taken as it is grossly unethical at best.

With everything we know now, inferring that the President was somehow in coordination with, or somehow made a puppet of the Russian government is extremists and dangerous language and should no longer be tolerated.

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

So, what are people waiting for now? And what will they be waiting for after that comes out?

Many people were fooled by the Russian collusion conspiracy hoax for almost 3 years. Most aren't going to be able to shake off that level of delusion and programming in 2 weeks.

It's going to take more time for some to finally arrive at acceptance.

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

You have something wrong with you...

Fox News got your brain like mush

Not an argument.

You're someone that could certainly benefit from some additional self-examination over this whole ordeal. Were you actually deceived by the Russian collusion conspiracy hoax, or did you just want it to be true?

 

[Jack V Savage]

BREAKING NEWS: NO COLLUSION!


/thread

Unfortunately, so many leftists are still in the varying stages of grief after no new indictments were handed down, that it's going to be very hard to get them to move on.

The problem is the leftists want to believe the Russian collusion conspiracy hoax is true. You're not going to be able to reason these leftists out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

Without the slightest bit of hyperbole, belief in the Russian collusion conspiracy hoax constitutes a real Mental Health crisis for portions of the American population.

After the 50th variation of these types of obvious trolling posts, most people would just give up. Imagine if that kind of e-stamina and work ethic were put to productive use!

 

[Jack V Savage]

So, what are people waiting for now? And what will they be waiting for after that comes out?

People want to see what Mueller was able to find out.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Where did you get the "sufficient" part from. I read Barr's report but I didn't see that except under the OOJ part. When it came to collusion it was straight forward in saying that not only did they not collude with Russia they refused Russia's help multiple times. Which is something I see left out which is pretty important if you ask me.

The problem is people improper focus on the word "collusion" and the claim "see no collusion" when collusion, under no circumstances was ever going to be charged as there is no charge for collusion.

collusion represents an umbrella term at best for what could be a number of findings, the two key ones being "links" and/or "coordination" with Russia. the two KEY items in the Mandate to be investigated.

So was there "sufficient" evidence of "links" and/or "coordination" with Russia. Yes, 100%. that was proven. Does that rise to the level of sufficiency to make a broader case on WILLFUL and KNOWING back and forth participation as opposed to just being stumbling dupes who would say "hey i did not know that was illegal", which is what most people think the Mueller report will contrast. Intent is everything here and if they did not know and just stumblef*cked their way around that does not rise to the sufficiency to make the broader case.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Again, this is you holding up a dozen metaphorical squirrels, and claiming a successful elephant hunt.

The entire purpose of the Russian collusion conspiracy hoax was to remove President Trump from power. It failed.

If you want to pretend that wasn't the primary goal, then I'll leave you to your delusions.

President Trump wins again.

once again you prove you never read nor understood the reason for the Investigation. That is on you.

 

[MikeMcMann]

With everything we know now, inferring that the President was somehow in coordination with, or somehow made a puppet of the Russian government is extremists and dangerous language and should no longer be tolerated.

Go ahead and quote me saying or suggesting anything like that?

- Trump WAS lying about his Russia Tower negotiations that would have enriched himself to the tune of Hundreds of Millions and gave him his desired signature property.
- It was something he could have disclosed legally in the run up to the election but chose to lie despite the lie opening him up to huge jeopardy, and the likely reason for the lie is that he thought it might cost him votes if he disclosed it.


Russia knowing he was lying and that they could expose the lie also put him at great risk of being pressured or blackmailed by them.

 

[HereticBD]

After the 50th variation of these types of obvious trolling posts, most people would just give up. Imagine if that kind of e-stamina and work ethic were put to productive use!

You sound upset, Jackie. Don't blame me for giving a completely accurate description of events.

No collusion, Jackie. It is over. These threads only exist now as some kind of coping mechanism, for you and your buddies to indulge in putting more conspiracies on top the original conspiracy that was proven false, because you nutters just can't accept the truth.

 

[Bloody Pulp]

"Collusion" does not exist as a chargeable offense so you were never going to get that.

What many of them were for was for "links" or "coordination" (elements of collusion) with Russia, and many people were found guilty for just that.

None of them were indicted for links or coordination with Russia.

 

[MusterX]

I never thought I would see the day when this many people would go full tin foil hat.

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

Go ahead and quote me saying or suggesting anything like that?

From this thread:

What many of them were for was for "links" or "coordination" (elements of collusion) with Russia

I'm glad that with you asking me to quote you saying such a thing, you acknowledge that any attempt at furthering the Russian collusion conspiracy hoax is extremists and dangerous language.

 

[MikeMcMann]

None of them were indicted for links or coordination with Russia.

Many of them were indicted for lying about "links" or "coordination" they had with Russia and found or plead guilty when it was proved they had "links" or "coordination" with Russia.

 

[Limit Smasher]

This is really fucking embarrassing.

Its as if the "Trump/Russia" conspiracy theory is some of you leftists only reason to live.

Any official numbers on how many suicides there's been since the hoax officially ended?

 

[method115]

So was there "sufficient" evidence of "links" and/or "coordination" with Russia. Yes, 100%. that was proven.

Except Barr's summary completely contradicts that.

“[T]he investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.”1

This was a quote straight from the report.

 

[MikeMcMann]

From this thread:



I'm glad that with you asking me to quote you saying such a thing, you acknowledge that any attempt at furthering the Russian collusion conspiracy hoax is extremists and dangerous language.

Yes those are two key elements of what someone would put in a Collusion definition.

And yes many in Trumps Campaign, and Trump himself were proven to have "links" and/or "coordination" with Russia that they were lying about.

Those are FACTS not in dispute by Mueller or Barr.

You think it is "dangerous" to state facts?