Choke used in self-defense ends in death

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by DKM76, Nov 28, 2005.

  1. DKM76

    DKM76 Guest

  2. b0b

    b0b Banned Banned

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    That is what happens when you start shit. Gentle Giant my ass.

    Besides, a blurry videotape is a lot more clear than the reccolections of drunk friends and bystanders who probably saw less than the tape.

    Also, I guess it shows the importance of using BLOOD chokes instead of trachea chokes.
     
  3. thecas

    thecas Blue Belt

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    Wow then, a choke from under a huge guy. Most likely a cross collar choke. What do u all think?
     
  4. b0b

    b0b Banned Banned

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    Guillotine maybe?
     
  5. eljamaiquino

    eljamaiquino Blue Belt

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    McDonald's case results in no charges
    Relativesof 21-year-old man who died in a fight outside the restaurant, are upset by the state attorney's decision.
    By JAMAL THALJI, Times Staff Writer
    Published August 23, 2005

    LAND O'LAKES - Big but gentle. That's how Anthony Makowski's family described the 21-year-old who was choked and killed in an April 24 brawl in the McDonald's parking lot off State Road 54.

    Watching the videotape of that early morning melee again and again, prosecutors saw him as something else: the aggressor.

    That is why the State Attorney's Office will not file criminal charges in the strangulation death of Makowski, instead ruling it an "excusable homicide."

    Prosecutors said the videotape shows Makowski charging Martin Robless-Taylor, then battering and body-slamming him. When Makowski's 6-foot-4, 271-pound frame got on top of Robless-Taylor, the Army-trained 25-year-old put the former Land O'Lakes High School football player in a choke hold.

    Makowski's death was tragic, Assistant State Attorney Bruce Bartlett said, but not a crime.

    "My deepest sympathy to the family," Bartlett said. "I know they're not happy with the answer, but we tried to do what we felt, in the light of the law, was the right thing to do.

    "Having viewed the tape, I'm comfortable with the decision that we have made in the case and firmly believe that Martin Robless-Taylor did not have any intent to kill Mr. Makowski."

    An internal Pasco Sheriff's Office investigation released Monday also cleared Deputy Donald Shaw, who first responded to the 4:41 a.m. fight, of the accusation that he failed to aid Makowski with CPR. Paramedics arrived as Shaw discovered Makowski had stopped breathing, according to a sheriff's report.

    Neither development was welcomed by the Makowskis, who have spent months raising questions about their son's death and rallying public support to file criminal charges.

    "We are more devastated," said Makowski's mother, Cathy. "It's like reliving the nightmare over again."

    Assistant State Attorney Phil Van Allen, flanked by sheriff's officials, broke the news to them Friday morning while meeting at the agency's State Road 54 office.

    "I was nauseous; I had to leave the room from hearing so many things," Cathy Makowski said. "It seemed like Mr. Van Allen was defending the criminal.

    "We couldn't believe our ears at what we were hearing. It was a total disregard for the facts. It was completely in favor of defending a criminal who did a reprehensible act."

    Cathy Makowski didn't stay to watch the videotape, but her husband, Wayne, and family friends did. They didn't see what the State Attorney's Office saw.

    "They are portraying my son as the aggressor when in actuality he is fighting for his life as he is being brutally attacked," the mother said.

    It all comes down to that videotape, taken by a camera at the drive-through window, which captures parts of the brawl in the parking lot beyond.

    It started with four men waiting in line at the 24-hour drive-through. According to witnesses, honks were exchanged during the long wait, and so were words. It was Makowski and friend Rick Hoadley, 21, in a black 2000 Toyota pickup. Ahead of them was Robless-Taylor and Samuel Wenzel Jr., 21, in a silver 1997 Honda sport utility vehicle.

    Hoadley said the other two men threw something at their truck. They pulled around the drive-through and parked. The videotape, prosecutors said, shows Robless-Taylor and Wenzel following the truck.

    What it shows next, neither side agrees on.

    Makowski charges Robless-Taylor, driving him from the right side of the screen to the left, prosecutors say. Robless-Taylor appears to trip and fall over a planter. Makowski body-slams him once, and Bartlett believes may have done so twice. Makowski appears to be all over Robless-Taylor, driving him to the ground, battering him, prosecutors say.

    That's when Robless-Taylor uses the choke hold. Hoadley and Wenzel stop their brawling and stand over the other two men. A crowd gathers. Someone tells Robless-Taylor to let go.

    According to prosecutors, Robless-Taylor's response was: "I will as soon as he lets me."

    Witnesses said the choke hold lasted from two to three minutes.

    Because Makowski had struck Robless-Taylor, and continued to strike him on the ground, the prosecutor said, Robless-Taylor had the right to keep him in the choke hold.

    "Unfortunately the two bystanders should have pulled him off," Bartlett said. "But that didn't happen."

    Alcohol may have fueled the brawl. Makowski's blood-alcohol level was 0.14, according to a sheriff's report. Bartlett said all four men involved in the fight had been drinking.

    Robless-Taylor could not be reached for comment.

    The Makowski family doesn't believe the State Attorney or the Pasco Sheriff's Office made an "objective" decision.

    "I cannot believe somebody would make a decision on a partial, blurry tape that when viewed you can't even discern what is going on," Cathy Makowski said. "They cannot even make it out."

    Let a grand jury decide, the mother said.

    It wasn't the type of case for a grand jury, Bartlett said. The decision not to prosecute was made by Bartlett, Van Allen and Assistant State Attorney Manuel Garcia. State Attorney Bernie McCabe signed off on it.

    "The position we were faced with is: What criminal responsibility did (Robless-Taylor) have as a result of his actions that night?" Bartlett said. "For the most part, it appeared as though he was acting in self-defense. We don't feel that it appears that he had any intent to kill that victim.

    "If in fact a jury were to see that videotape, I don't see how a jury would ever convict anybody of a crime for that."

    [Last modified August 23, 2005, 02:45:30]


    Probably a forearm across the windpipe. Hope this teaches people something...
     
  6. eljamaiquino

    eljamaiquino Blue Belt

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    Strangles don't take 2-3 minutes to work. This wasn't a blood choke. Some kind of forearm scissors maybe....
     
  7. TexDeuce

    TexDeuce Blue Belt

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    90% likely it was a guillotine. If he was on bottom, that is the most common and easy to apply for someone who knows even a little about submissions. Triangle choke? Highly unlikely unless he was a good BJJ guy, which he probably wasn't. I'm sure it was a guillotine, but holding that shit 2-3 mins? WTF dude.

    That dumbass should have known holding it that long can kill someone or cause irreversible brain damage. The big guy did not deserve to die, he did deserve to get choked out. Shit, all it takes is 6-10 seconds and the guy would be out. Once he goes limp, you should let go.

    Thats why everyone who is taught submissions should learn safety as well, and that they should let go as soon as the person goes limp unless you want to kill them.
     
  8. eljamaiquino

    eljamaiquino Blue Belt

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    Someone tells Robless-Taylor to let go.

    According to prosecutors, Robless-Taylor's response was: "I will as soon as he lets me."

    That's why I think it was a windpipe choke. If the guy was still holding on to him for minutes as it sounds like, then the kid was probably still conscious for quite a bit. Probably a bungled guillotine with the forearm across the throat....

    He should have let go, but with alcohol involved, who knows...
     
  9. DMcKayBJJ

    DMcKayBJJ Blue Belt

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    Yeah, a trachea-crushing guillotine sounds likely.
     
  10. flyingknee16

    flyingknee16 Brown Belt

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    The problem is though, in a street fight you don't know the intent of the other person. What if they're actually trying to kill you? I've always wondered what I would do if I got an armbar on someone in the street and if I would go all the way and break it or not. That is the safest way to make sure that the fight will end, but is it really necessary? That's why street fights are pretty bad, and if you're going to get into a street fight and use a submission, you better be ready for what might happen.
     
  11. eljamaiquino

    eljamaiquino Blue Belt

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    When a 6'4" 271lb guy charges you, bodyslams you twice, then starts punching you while he's on top, I think it safe to asume death, or at least permanent injury is likely.

    Start snapping limbs if you can. At least he's still alive. I would say it depends on weight discrepancy, bystanders, etc as to what you can get away with.
     
  12. Truculent

    Truculent Orange Belt

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    <b> Cathy Makowski didn't stay to watch the videotape, but her husband, Wayne, and family friends did. They didn't see what the State Attorney's Office saw.

    "They are portraying my son as the aggressor when in actuality he is fighting for his life as he is being brutally attacked," the mother said.

    </b>

    if she didn't stay to watch, how could she possibly use descriptive speech to tell how it went down?
     
  13. iclimb513

    iclimb513 Orange Belt

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    Except that a LOT of the time, when someone gets choked unconscious they don't go limp. In fact, they will often stiffen up with muscular contraction and can cause the person doing the choking to think the guy is actually still resisting.

    This kind of explains the defendant's words "I'll let him up when he lets me" (or words to that effect). With the combination of alcohol, fear, adrenaline and the high possibility the guy who got killed never actually "went limp" I can see how this could happen.

    Personally, if a guy who outweighs me by 80 pound bodyslams me on concrete and then starts throwing at my head while it is on the ground, I'm going to assume it is a fight for my life or his. The defendant could have been killed by head against concrete very easily. Good for him.
     
  14. Sohei

    Sohei A Smocking gun

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    It serves all these giant douchebags right for thinking they can bully everyone. Good job Taylor it was slef-defense.
     
  15. jjmuaythaiguy

    jjmuaythaiguy Brown Belt

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    My friends its always like this.

    Parents and families of an agressor will say, "He was a good kid. He was loved by all." Anyone can be an aggressor or commit crimes, teenagers, police officers, senators, and judges. Bottom line, anyone is capable of committing a crime. Anyone. Especially a drunk 6' 4", 275 lb drunk guy trying to beat someone from the top position.

    I feel bad for the death because I don't wish death on anyone. However, I feel like the investigations results were justified.

    Thanks for posting this information.
     
  16. b0b

    b0b Banned Banned

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    I have been choked out and have seen many people choked out (fully out). All of them went limp first, followed by convulsions of some sort. You would know if they were out or not.
    These are blood chokes, mind you.

    I have never seen someone choked out by a trachea choke, so I don't know if they would do it the same way.
     
  17. Commissar

    Commissar Gold Belt

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    If I get attacked, I'd obliterate the arm. If I'm fighting someone who simply has a grudge with me, I'd choke him out. Maybe show him I could break his arm, then stop.
     
  18. The Sickness

    The Sickness Ichizoku

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    I've gone out via blood choke too, and I think you brought up the right point. I have seen guys get choked out and stiffen up and start convulsing as well, and this was from a guillotine. I think the type of choke that it is can have differing effects on different people...
     
  19. sproggdawg

    sproggdawg Nap Facilitator

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    This is a pretty old story. It was eventually determined that it was a guillotine choke that he used, although the investigators didnt call it that. Theyve recently passed a law in florida stating that injury or death inflicted by an act of self defense is not unlawful and carries no penalty to the defendee as long as it can be established that it was in fact a self defense situation. Sounds good to me.
     
  20. The Sickness

    The Sickness Ichizoku

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    I don't want anyone to die, but the way I see this going down, is the big dude got out of the car, he was drunk, acting beligerant, and words were exchanged. They started going at it, and he thought he would just throw the little guy around. He got choked the fuck out. The little guy didn't know when to let go(he was army trained. which goes to show, a little bit of knowledge is a very dangerous thing). But the guy was defending himself, the video shows that the big dude as trying to fuck him up, slammed him twice and was throwing bolos. He did what he felt necessary to preserve his life at the time...
     

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