Cesar Gracie BJJ and Loyalty

[makaio]

The only thing that dehydration does, is messing with your performance. If a grappler wants to be tougher, he should try boxing.

I boxed at Richard Lord's for two years in Austin while I was in college. Both sports are amazing and both have their plus/minus. I am being totally honest when I say that I feel like I could've ragdolled many of my boxing sparring partners if there were less rules, i.e. Clinching, takedowns, grappling.

In any case, I enjoy them both and toughness could come from a number of places.

This wasn't supposed to be a thread about how not drinking water for 30 to 60 minutes whilst conducting physical activity makes you tough. Yo, I love water. It's amazing.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

I remember when Cesar Gracie got knocked out by Frank Shamrock in San Jose back in a 2006 Strikeforce event, I saw Ralph Gracie in the crowd laughing his ass off. I wonder why.

Yeah, by contrast, I have heard nothing but unanimous reverence for Ralph.

 

[makaio]

Yeah, by contrast, I have heard nothing but unanimous reverence for Ralph.

I've also heard great things about Ralph and I know his students are equally enthusiastic about their team and lineage.

I'm not attacking you or trying to defend anyone who doesn't need my help but the speculation factor seems a little high.

All of the names that you dropped earlier suggest that there is a disdain for Cesar but a simple google search reveals, in fact, the exact opposite. I don't have the inner circle gouge and the fight business is much different than the BJJ hobbyist one so its hard to say.

And the thing about Cesar putting pressure on his brown belts... I don't get it. That's what this thread is about. If I'm going to promote you, I'd expect some degree of loyalty in return.. If a grown man wanted or neede to creonte at that point, that's his/her own prerogative.

 

[lts5025]

Yeah, by contrast, I have heard nothing but unanimous reverence for Ralph.

Uh, ask Bobby Southworth or BJ Penn or Dave Camarillo about their reverence for Ralph.

 

[makaio]

I remember when Cesar Gracie got knocked out by Frank Shamrock in San Jose back in a 2006 Strikeforce event, I saw Ralph Gracie in the crowd laughing his ass off. I wonder why.

No idea, although Ralph is know to be a sadist so maybe seeing your cousin get knocked out is funny?

 

[Nicholonious]

Uh, ask Bobby Southworth or BJ Penn or Dave Camarillo about their reverence for Ralph.

You don't know what you're talking about.

 

[mattemate]

Hmmmm, sounds like a hard thing to generalize to the West Coast and more of a function of the Academy decor. I trained at Phil Cardellas's Academy for a few years and there were no hard and fast rules on getting water.

Also, all my experiences with Academies in Japan were to do whatever one pleased.

It's all venison breaks.

 

[lts5025]

You don't know what you're talking about.

Sure, buddy.

 

[kenpeters8]

No idea, although Ralph is know to be a sadist so maybe seeing your cousin get knocked out is funny?

Makes people wonder if Cesar was laughing his ass off when Takanori Gomi knocked out Ralph in PRIDE back in 2004.

 

[yetanother]

Not allowing students to hydrate is a sign of being very tough due to having a tiny brain inside of a very thick skull making you hard to knock out.

 

[Dogstarman]

I boxed at Richard Lord's for two years in Austin while I was in college. Both sports are amazing and both have their plus/minus. I am being totally honest when I say that I feel like I could've ragdolled many of my boxing sparring partners if there were less rules, i.e. Clinching, takedowns, grappling.

In any case, I enjoy them both and toughness could come from a number of places.

This wasn't supposed to be a thread about how not drinking water for 30 to 60 minutes whilst conducting physical activity makes you tough. Yo, I love water. It's amazing.

People are just responding because needing water and denying someone a water break because you need to be tough are different things. Now if you get your water and just sit on the sidelines because you are trying to stall, that is one thing. But getting your water and coming straight back to the mat during your minute or 30 second rest break, that is another thing.

Let's just be clear. Drinking water doesn't mean you are a pussy.

I too grew up in south Texas and remember those grueling practices where your football coach would deny you water or even punish you with lack of water if you fucked up. It's not good and it's foolish to do that to people.

 

[freakroor]

my gym has a water fountain in the corner with ice cold water

 

[makaio]

People are just responding because needing water and denying someone a water break because you need to be tough are different things. Now if you get your water and just sit on the sidelines because you are trying to stall, that is one thing. But getting your water and coming straight back to the mat during your minute or 30 second rest break, that is another thing.

Let's just be clear. Drinking water doesn't mean you are a pussy.

I too grew up in south Texas and remember those grueling practices where your football coach would deny you water or even punish you with lack of water if you fucked up. It's not good and it's foolish to do that to people.

The thing is, I've never heard of anyone being denied water and I certainly wouldn't jump to the the conclusion that anyone in a "leadership" position at the Academy thinks this is a concept of developing toughness.

I definitely think we've evolved culturally from the days where children are denied water because "tough it out, boy!"

Again, access to water at the Academy isn't an issue. There's a water cooler in the back and a fridge stocked with water and Gatorade at the front.

Water breaks are given so that everyone goes at the same time. No stragglers unless you go ask the instructor. It's part of the academy etiquette to request to leave the mat during training. This imparts discipline and discipline could be related to "toughness."

It was this idea that I was referring to but some people want to get all uptight and want to say that it's dumb, unhealthy and borderline torture to DENY someone water. Lol. If one wants to train smart, drink plenty of water and eat healthy foods the other 22 hours of the day. I promise, your body will be running amazingly efficient.

 

[JustTheTip]

OP, what other schools in the Bay Area have you trained at to compare the "Toughness" of training?

 

[Uchi Mata]

Yeah, by contrast, I have heard nothing but unanimous reverence for Ralph.

Pretty sure the sarcasm of this post went over everyone's heads. Ralph is well known for being extremely sadistic. All of Robson's boys seem to have/have had anger management issues.

 

[makaio]

OP, what other schools in the Bay Area have you trained at to compare the "Toughness" of training?

Dropped in at Ralph's twice and trained at Zeus in Monterey twice.

My original post wasn't a comparison of Bay Area schools so please don't turn it into one. I've trained all over the world and it's all good.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

Pretty sure the sarcasm of this post went over everyone's heads. Ralph is well known for being extremely sadistic. All of Robson's boys seem to have/have had anger management issues.

Exactly. Most everybody respects Ralph, but I've encountered at least a couple of "I caught Ralph in a sub so he popped my arm the next roll" stories.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Exactly. Most everybody respects Ralph, but I've encountered at least a couple of "I caught Ralph in a sub so he popped my arm the next roll" stories.

I respect him as a practitioner, and he's produced some good guys, but some of the stories about forcing Camarillo to put on boxing gloves and then beating the hell out him are pretty bad. Even in BS martial arts world of 'hurting people for their own good' or 'making them tough' Ralph stories stand out. Really hard training sessions are cool. Abusing your power over your students to make them do stuff they don't want to do for your sadistic glee, not so much.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

I've also heard great things about Ralph and I know his students are equally enthusiastic about their team and lineage.

I'm not attacking you or trying to defend anyone who doesn't need my help but the speculation factor seems a little high.

All of the names that you dropped earlier suggest that there is a disdain for Cesar but a simple google search reveals, in fact, the exact opposite. I don't have the inner circle gouge and the fight business is much different than the BJJ hobbyist one so its hard to say.

And the thing about Cesar putting pressure on his brown belts... I don't get it. That's what this thread is about. If I'm going to promote you, I'd expect some degree of loyalty in return.. If a grown man wanted or neede to creonte at that point, that's his/her own prerogative.

http://forum.mixedmartialarts.com/thread/2485486/Nick-Diaz-calls-Cesar-Gracie-a-Crook

http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/4/1...-diaz-parts-ways-with-cesar-gracie-as-manager

Regarding the brown belts, the word I used was "exploit." In my opinion, one should only need to train hard and improve one's skills to earn a belt promotion, perhaps prove oneself in competition if it is that kind of gym, but Cesar's standard (according to the stories I've heard) goes beyond that.

Again, this is all just a reflection of stories I've heard so take it for what it's worth, but I can assure you that they come from very reliable sources. On the other hand, I've been to the Pleasant Hill gym a few times and it's a fine place with nice people and great BJJ,. And like I said, the impact Cesar has had on Bay Area martial arts, and his eye for talent, is undeniable.

 

[lechien]

You don't know what you're talking about.

Then you need bj penn and dave camarillo books. Because they wrote about training at ralph