Cesar Gracie BJJ and Loyalty

[Uchi Mata]

So when you're talking about switching schools, how you do it matters. This goes back to the 'long term business relationship' thing. If I have a supplier I've used for years and I just drop him with no notice and switch to one of his competitors, he's going to be justifiably pissed. That's dirty pool. But if I go to him and say 'Jim, these are the things that aren't working for me, can we figure something out or is this just the way it is' and he's not willing or can't change the problematic aspects of our relationship then I'm totally justified in telling him openly that I'm moving my business to someone else. Same thing in BJJ. I would never just leave my gym with no explanation, talk shit about my old team, etc. That's just disrespectful in any realm. But if something is wrong at my gym, I talk to my teacher about it and he either can't or won't make the changes I need to be happy, I'm totally justified in moving schools. Just do it openly and respectfully like an adult. In my experience most people are fine with that sort of thing. I recently got a new job and I told my coach that I'd not be able to teach anymore and that I'd probably only be at the gym 2x a week and would pick up sessions at a gym we're friendly with close to my job. He was totally cool with it, because I gave him good reasons and I addressed the issues openly. If I had just stopped teaching, stopped coming as often, and not offered to start paying the normal student rate he'd probably have been pissed and he'd have been right to be mad because that's a poor way to handle such a situation.

 

[JustTheTip]

Even back home in Brasil, Cesar Gracie is famous for being stingy with his belts. If you get a belt from HIM, you KNOW it's fkn legit. A Cesar purple is most people's high browns

I disagree. There are a few students at every belt there that has been training a really long time and really bad ass but on average the belt levels are about the same as everywhere else.They just have trained alot longer to be at the belt.

 

[Forceof1]

Even back home in Brasil, Cesar Gracie is famous for being stingy with his belts. If you get a belt from HIM, you KNOW it's fkn legit. A Cesar purple is most people's high browns

This isn't stingy- it's sandbagging. If I decide it takes 4 years to go from blue to purple - it doesn't make my school more legit or impressive , or show that I have higher standards - it just means I don't promote people when they are ready. If it takes 3 years to go from white to generally accepted real blue belt level - your gym isn't stingy - it has horrible teaching practices.

 

[makaio]

This isn't stingy- it's sandbagging. If I decide it takes 4 years to go from blue to purple - it doesn't make my school more legit or impressive , or show that I have higher standards - it just means I don't promote people when they are ready. If it takes 3 years to go from white to generally accepted real blue belt level - your gym isn't stingy - it has horrible teaching practices.

I've seen no evidence that Cesar promotes slow to produce sandbaggers. Plus, sandbagging only applies if you're competing.

It would be hard to argue that our Academy has horrible teaching practices since we have top level people teaching. If it isn't a top level BB, it's a world champion at brown or purple running the am class, for example.

3 years at white belt is probably too long, in general.

I'll admit, I'm a shitty learner and I don't drill like I should...
I've been a bluebelt for 9 years and I'd say my technical ability is about that of an okay blue belt and overall time really has nothing to do with it. I would say that mat time does though. I've had extended periods where I'm off the mat due to work and life but I'm always in decent shape and I show back up ready to train, time permitting. Currently, I train 1-2 times a week because I'm fairly busy w/ other stuff.

What's the issue with having standards that might be perceived as high? It's his Academy, it's his choice.

Some people expect that they train for x-number of years and they should "be" a certain belt level but the logic is problematic.

 

[makaio]

Just wanted to add that I've seen plenty of belt promotions at the Academy over the years since I've started training at GF.

 

[Zearomm]

The more OP tries to defend Cesar Gracie the more i dislike him.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I've seen no evidence that Cesar promotes slow to produce sandbaggers. Plus, sandbagging only applies if you're competing.

It would be hard to argue that our Academy has horrible teaching practices since we have top level people teaching. If it isn't a top level BB, it's a world champion at brown or purple running the am class, for example.

3 years at white belt is probably too long, in general.

I'll admit, I'm a shitty learner and I don't drill like I should...
I've been a bluebelt for 9 years and I'd say my technical ability is about that of an okay blue belt and overall time really has nothing to do with it. I would say that mat time does though. I've had extended periods where I'm off the mat due to work and life but I'm always in decent shape and I show back up ready to train, time permitting. Currently, I train 1-2 times a week because I'm fairly busy w/ other stuff.

What's the issue with having standards that might be perceived as high? It's his Academy, it's his choice.

Some people expect that they train for x-number of years and they should "be" a certain belt level but the logic is problematic.

In essence, it's the same problem as having standards that are too low. If the belt system is to have any meaning, it's only because there are generally agreed upon levels of skill that pertain to each belt and instructors tacitly agree to more or less abide by those standards when doing promotions. If your purple belts can either tool black belts or get owned by white belts, in either case that purple belt deviates from the generally accepted meaning of what a purple belt is. BJJ is pretty good about this actually, such that almost anywhere you go if you're a normal purple belt you can hang with other purple belts, kill white belts, and get killed by black belts. Major deviations from the standard, whether positive or negative, undermine the standard. It's far from the biggest problem in BJJ but it does undermine the raison d'etre of the belt system.

 

[makaio]

The more OP tries to defend Cesar Gracie the more i dislike him.

Thanks bud!

 

[makaio]

In essence, it's the same problem as having standards that are too low. If the belt system is to have any meaning, it's only because there are generally agreed upon levels of skill that pertain to each belt and instructors tacitly agree to more or less abide by those standards when doing promotions. If your purple belts can either tool black belts or get owned by white belts, in either case that purple belt deviates from the generally accepted meaning of what a purple belt is. BJJ is pretty good about this actually, such that almost anywhere you go if you're a normal purple belt you can hang with other purple belts, kill white belts, and get killed by black belts. Major deviations from the standard, whether positive or negative, undermine the standard. It's far from the biggest problem in BJJ but it does undermine the raison d'etre of the belt system.

I agree Uchi. That said, it's my honest view that neither of these are taking place at the Academy.

 

[makaio]

Thanks bud!

I like how you liked me thanking you.

 

[makaio]

In essence, it's the same problem as having standards that are too low. If the belt system is to have any meaning, it's only because there are generally agreed upon levels of skill that pertain to each belt and instructors tacitly agree to more or less abide by those standards when doing promotions. If your purple belts can either tool black belts or get owned by white belts, in either case that purple belt deviates from the generally accepted meaning of what a purple belt is. BJJ is pretty good about this actually, such that almost anywhere you go if you're a normal purple belt you can hang with other purple belts, kill white belts, and get killed by black belts. Major deviations from the standard, whether positive or negative, undermine the standard. It's far from the biggest problem in BJJ but it does undermine the raison d'etre of the belt system.

Uchi, wouldn't you also agree that the standard is on a sliding scale and that BJJ in the US or around the world will eventually catch up to Brazilian standards as long as the standards are held in high regard?

 

[Uchi Mata]

Uchi, wouldn't you also agree that the standard is on a sliding scale and that BJJ in the US or around the world will eventually catch up to Brazilian standards as long as the standards are held in high regard?

I think BJJ in the US is already at about the same point as BJJ in Brazil. There are more schools in Brazil so you're still going to see a preponderance of champs coming from there, but I don't think that Rio or Sao Paulo are ahead of San Diego or NYC in terms of general skill level. Most of the Brazilian colored belts I've trained with were pretty comparable to Americans of the same rank. Largely because the original teachers in the US were Brazilians I don't think too much dilution of standards ever occurred.

 

[lechien]

This isn't stingy- it's sandbagging. If I decide it takes 4 years to go from blue to purple - it doesn't make my school more legit or impressive , or show that I have higher standards - it just means I don't promote people when they are ready. If it takes 3 years to go from white to generally accepted real blue belt level - your gym isn't stingy - it has horrible teaching practices.

Well, we do not know about the amount of years of training.

All we know is that GFT is a top competition school.
It must attract succesful competitors from other gyms and we do not know how many are truly homegrown.
We do not know if he is talking about the students that cesar only promote at his academy.
It leads me to think that steel sharpens steel. If you train with top dogs, you can only improve fast or sink.
Now of course it would of poor taste to promote someone to a higher belt if he won some big bjj titles.

The disparity of skills between people that hold the same color belt within a gym is massive. Let not even consider between 2 gyms.

It is just not black and white.

I heard carlson gracie gym in rio does not do stripes.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

I've seen no evidence that Cesar promotes slow to produce sandbaggers. Plus, sandbagging only applies if you're competing.

It would be hard to argue that our Academy has horrible teaching practices since we have top level people teaching. If it isn't a top level BB, it's a world champion at brown or purple running the am class, for example.

3 years at white belt is probably too long, in general.

I'll admit, I'm a shitty learner and I don't drill like I should...
I've been a bluebelt for 9 years and I'd say my technical ability is about that of an okay blue belt and overall time really has nothing to do with it. I would say that mat time does though. I've had extended periods where I'm off the mat due to work and life but I'm always in decent shape and I show back up ready to train, time permitting. Currently, I train 1-2 times a week because I'm fairly busy w/ other stuff.

What's the issue with having standards that might be perceived as high? It's his Academy, it's his choice.

Some people expect that they train for x-number of years and they should "be" a certain belt level but the logic is problematic.

I think you're missing the point here. Some of us genuinely know what we're talking about with Cesar, and I think are being very fair with our criticisms (perhaps more than we should based on some stories that are out there). Maybe take a step back, even talk to some of the more cynical old-timers at your gym, and I suspect you'll get a better idea.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

I wonder has Queixinho and Cesar ever rolled. And I wonder if Cesar can smash Queixinho.

I've literally heard somebody say that Cesar is/was only a brown belt skillwise. I don't necessarily believe this, but can anybody give an accurate assessment of Cesar's ability? There's no comp or fight footage of him that I know of (except for the Frank thing), no gym footage, and he rarely teaches (these days). Despite his pedigree, I've also never heard any glowing accounts of his skills that you hear about other Gracie royalty.

 

[makaio]

I think you're missing the point here. Some of us genuinely know what we're talking about with Cesar, and I think are being very fair with our criticisms (perhaps more than we should based on some stories that are out there). Maybe take a step back, even talk to some of the more cynical old-timers at your gym, and I suspect you'll get a better idea.

It sounds like you have lots of experience in the community but I'm basing my opinion on first hand experience with the Academy. Sorry man, I'm just not going to buy into your stories because you said so. For one, they don't mesh with actual reality.

You posted some stuff about suspecting his black belt MMA fighters split because he's sketchy. Go look at Diaz bros. Instagram. Cesar's logo is all over their shit, which they posted. Go look at el Nino's website where GF logo is clearly displayed, where Moses (recent Cesar BB) is the BJJ coach. If all these guys hated each other, the first thing they would do is remove the logo.

I'm not saying that the stories you've heard aren't legitimate or from legitimate ppl but my experience has been first hand. Honestly, if the man fucked somebody over back in the day, what in the shit does that have to do with me? I've fucked ppl over and made mistakes that I regret but I've apologized and resolved to not do those things again. That's life..

Again, my intent is not to attack anyone or even defend someone who doesn't need me to, but to give my personal experience. We all have something of value to add to the community and I'm more excited about learning from others than tearing anyone down.

As a guy paying $110 bucks a month (excellent pricing btw) to learn BJJ as a hobbyist, my experience has been fantastic.

I've literally heard somebody say that Cesar is/was only a brown belt skillwise. I don't necessarily believe this, but can anybody give an accurate assessment of Cesar's ability? There's no comp or fight footage of him that I know of (except for the Frank thing), no gym footage, and he rarely teaches (these days). Despite his pedigree, I've also never heard any glowing accounts of his skills that you hear about other Gracie royalty.

They should take that up with Robson Gracie.....

 

[kenpeters8]

I've literally heard somebody say that Cesar is/was only a brown belt skillwise. I don't necessarily believe this, but can anybody give an accurate assessment of Cesar's ability? There's no comp or fight footage of him that I know of (except for the Frank thing), no gym footage, and he rarely teaches (these days). Despite his pedigree, I've also never heard any glowing accounts of his skills that you hear about other Gracie royalty.

I've heard Cesar is a bad ass on the mat, but you're right. The only thing I've seen him was the MMA fight vs. Frank Shamrock and I was there watching it in person.

But I heard Ralph is a bad ass on the mat though from a lot of people.