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THERE ARE BASICALLY two traditions within Catch-as-catch-can wrestling - and Lancashire (England) is one of them. (Karl Gotch comes from that school)....The other comes from the midwest (Ohio, Illinois, etc.) - from the 1880's...and starts with people like Martin (Farmer) Burns - and others.
Farmer Burns' top student was Frank Gotch - the first official title holder of World Heavyweight Wrestling Championship within the NWA (National Wrestling Alliance).
Karl Gotch's real name is Karl Istaz...he took the name Gotch in reverence for Frank Gotch. (Karl is a German-Hungarian who was born and raised in Belgium).
So today - you have Tony Cecchine teaching (he originally learned from Stanley Radwan)...and there is Karl Gotch...and Billy Robinson teaches in Japan at the present time.
Then there are one or two people who teach Catch - one being none other than Gene Lebell in California (though he mixes it with judo/jiu jitsu - and is close to being considered a true hooker - but not quite) - he learned his best Catch stuff right from Lou Thesz...and there is Billy Wicks - but I don't think he's still teaching.
Farmer Burns' top student was Frank Gotch - the first official title holder of World Heavyweight Wrestling Championship within the NWA (National Wrestling Alliance).
Karl Gotch's real name is Karl Istaz...he took the name Gotch in reverence for Frank Gotch. (Karl is a German-Hungarian who was born and raised in Belgium).
So today - you have Tony Cecchine teaching (he originally learned from Stanley Radwan)...and there is Karl Gotch...and Billy Robinson teaches in Japan at the present time.
Then there are one or two people who teach Catch - one being none other than Gene Lebell in California (though he mixes it with judo/jiu jitsu - and is close to being considered a true hooker - but not quite) - he learned his best Catch stuff right from Lou Thesz...and there is Billy Wicks - but I don't think he's still teaching.
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b0b said:
The lock exists but this is a perfect example because instead of falling into position as BJJ would, Saku just twists him around like crazy, forcing the submission. Key point here
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DISCLAIMER_________I have no experience with catchwrestling though I have viewed some of Tony's C's tapes__________________________________
I do have a blue in BJJ and I had been involved in wrestling for many years at the High School level through personal experience and through my younger siblings (3 of them ) all having wrestled. I was able to effectively continue praticing and attendng meets as well as assist in coaching etc...
having said all that my critique of catch is this.....
from what I have seen it is a very effective style to learn takedowns, pins AND subs from positions of dominance. The ONE negative aspect IMO is the LACK of focus on fighting off your back. Sure I have seen claims that they use body scissors much like BJJ's guard but i have not seen the level of refinement in the catch body scissors versus the BJJ guard.
On the other hand while BJJ has effectively mastered the guard I believe they spend TOO much time in that position and neg;ect some of the takedowns(thought they are working on it) and more aggrtessive ways to end the fight using joint locks. In the classes I have attended I would say 60-70% involved guard attacks or guard passes. In fact it has been my observation that if I end up in my opponents guard and NEITHER of us make a move that the pressure is on ME to move...such as in a guard pass .
so all in all I in all its my opinion that BOTH these grappling styles can be and are very effective depending on the stylists. The gracies and a host of other bjj'rs representing Jiu Jitsu and Sak as well as other shootfighters/cathcwrestlers(lions den type) fighters representing a form of catch. I guess it all depends on what type of grappling you prefer.
I do have a blue in BJJ and I had been involved in wrestling for many years at the High School level through personal experience and through my younger siblings (3 of them ) all having wrestled. I was able to effectively continue praticing and attendng meets as well as assist in coaching etc...
having said all that my critique of catch is this.....
from what I have seen it is a very effective style to learn takedowns, pins AND subs from positions of dominance. The ONE negative aspect IMO is the LACK of focus on fighting off your back. Sure I have seen claims that they use body scissors much like BJJ's guard but i have not seen the level of refinement in the catch body scissors versus the BJJ guard.
On the other hand while BJJ has effectively mastered the guard I believe they spend TOO much time in that position and neg;ect some of the takedowns(thought they are working on it) and more aggrtessive ways to end the fight using joint locks. In the classes I have attended I would say 60-70% involved guard attacks or guard passes. In fact it has been my observation that if I end up in my opponents guard and NEITHER of us make a move that the pressure is on ME to move...such as in a guard pass .
so all in all I in all its my opinion that BOTH these grappling styles can be and are very effective depending on the stylists. The gracies and a host of other bjj'rs representing Jiu Jitsu and Sak as well as other shootfighters/cathcwrestlers(lions den type) fighters representing a form of catch. I guess it all depends on what type of grappling you prefer.
G
Gavin LeFever
Guest
did you order from the catch wrestle sight? did you get the "silver package"? just trying to make sure the silver is the same, just in dvds. that bjj.org article makes 110$ tempting.
have any dvd-r compatability problems? i think i have a philips at home and it's listed as no-go.
have any dvd-r compatability problems? i think i have a philips at home and it's listed as no-go.
G
Gavin LeFever
Guest
the weakness in bjj is the transition from standing to the ground. the ground work is solid but the transition is the gap for 99% of bjjers.knoxpk said:
sure you get the top 1% of bjjers who not only learn good stand up/takedowns and dominate in it (rodrego going with d1 wrestlers and taking them down to get ready for his fight comes to mind) but the rest are lacking in this area and just resort to pulling guard.
this works for some, because it puts the aggressor in a situation he might not be used to, but in this day and age, bjj is no small secret. the guard isn't something new like royce v ken so the guys getting comfortable in guard who used to tap wrestlers with it are back under pressure when people start cross training in catch, sambo, etc.
it might just be my personal gripe vs guard-pullers taking the glory out of me finishing my ..glorious.. takedowns, but whatever. i think catch is a good tool to have in your arsenal vs this kind of stuff. most bjjers are comfortable in guard (though not all) so having something to remind them, they're on bottom is always nice, even if you cannot strike.
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It worked on my DVD ( a Gradiente), and I didnFight_Song said:
G
Gavin LeFever
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VagabondMusashi said:
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Thanks for the help guys. I think when I can afford it I'll go for the silver package.
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Piper
Guest
knoxpk:
You make a sound comparison/analysis between Catch and BJJ.
I am by no means a "hooker", but have been including Catchwrestling in the mix of MMA that I study and practice. I've studied BJJ/Catch for about 6 years. I have received excellent BJJ instruction with instructors affiliated with Roy Harris, The Machados, Dean Lister, and others. I have had live training in Catchwrestling with Tony Cecchine at 5 of his weekend seminars around the country, and I have all the the videos on Catch he has produced.
Two important things Tony would teach at the seminars are: Understanding body mechanics, and then being inventive in the use of techniques. There are set techniques that you learn and repeat, but with an understanding of body mechanics in the Catch mindset, you see things you can do to submit someone, better. Tony would use the analogy of an improvisational jazz musician - give him a couple of notes, and he'll get something going. Give the Catchwrestler some limb and he'll do something with it. There are many ingenious holds/subs that Catch has that BJJ doesn't, but I've also "invented" stuff myself, while training with guys, due to that Catch mindset.
The guard position is very well exploited in BJJ, much more so than Catch. As was said, probably too much. Given, the background of Catch as a form of wrestling, being on your back in Catch is sort of an embarassment - you shouldn't be there. Remember, Catchwrestling is from wrestling, and wresters don't want to be on their backs. If you are there, it shouldn't be for long. It is a defensive position. I appreciate how BJJ prepared me to use that position, and I use it a lot, and am comfortable exploiting it (here I mean the closed guard, NOT the open guard). But I should say that there are a couple of submissions from Catch that I have added to the usual BJJ attacks from the guard. One submits just about every guy under 200 lbs., the other will quickly make anyone scream to submit.
My approach to MMA has always been to "learn/use what works". My BJJ is no-gi and I'm not interested in techniques that require a gi or 16 steps to complete. I started learning Catch within my first year of BJJ lessons. My BJJ classmates nicknamed me "the Catchwrestler" because I added and used several Catch techniques to my rolling style in class. My instructor and classmates were seeing me use some techniques and subs that they had never seen before. I would say BJJ is my core style, but I definitely have a larger arsenal of effective submissions/techniques that I have added to that from Catch.
As I said, with Catch and BJJ there are two different mindsets. BJJ has a more limited, and predictable, arsenal of techniques. Catch widens beyond BJJ's aresenal, and with its spontaneity and improvisational approach is less predictable than BJJ.
There is a DVD, a documentary that just came out from England called: "Catch: The Hold not Taken" http://www.riverhorse.tv/CATCH/BuyDVD/buy_index.htm , that gives an excellent history of Catchwrestling. The Catch lineage is traced, from its early practicioners to it's influence in wrestling in the USA, and MMA in Japan. There is a direct influence in the Japanese MMA/NHB practitioners, due to Cathwrestlers who went to Japan a generation ago and taught them.
See how Sakuraba compares with Royce Gracie, and you see, at the extremes, how Catch compares with BJJ.
I hope that Tony Cecchine, and the few living old masters and understudies of Catch, can revive and pass on the knowledge before it disappears. The little I have learned has been a been a definite plus. I wish there was a Catch school, and a Catchwrestling curriculum. The growing popularity of the NHB events and the desire to "learn and use what works", might help in that revival.
In any case. I have mats at my place, and a small group of guys who come over to practice BJJ/Catch. If you are ever in the area of San Diego, you are welcome to get in touch, and I'll be happy to swap some techniques with you.
Good luck.
[email protected]
You make a sound comparison/analysis between Catch and BJJ.
I am by no means a "hooker", but have been including Catchwrestling in the mix of MMA that I study and practice. I've studied BJJ/Catch for about 6 years. I have received excellent BJJ instruction with instructors affiliated with Roy Harris, The Machados, Dean Lister, and others. I have had live training in Catchwrestling with Tony Cecchine at 5 of his weekend seminars around the country, and I have all the the videos on Catch he has produced.
Two important things Tony would teach at the seminars are: Understanding body mechanics, and then being inventive in the use of techniques. There are set techniques that you learn and repeat, but with an understanding of body mechanics in the Catch mindset, you see things you can do to submit someone, better. Tony would use the analogy of an improvisational jazz musician - give him a couple of notes, and he'll get something going. Give the Catchwrestler some limb and he'll do something with it. There are many ingenious holds/subs that Catch has that BJJ doesn't, but I've also "invented" stuff myself, while training with guys, due to that Catch mindset.
The guard position is very well exploited in BJJ, much more so than Catch. As was said, probably too much. Given, the background of Catch as a form of wrestling, being on your back in Catch is sort of an embarassment - you shouldn't be there. Remember, Catchwrestling is from wrestling, and wresters don't want to be on their backs. If you are there, it shouldn't be for long. It is a defensive position. I appreciate how BJJ prepared me to use that position, and I use it a lot, and am comfortable exploiting it (here I mean the closed guard, NOT the open guard). But I should say that there are a couple of submissions from Catch that I have added to the usual BJJ attacks from the guard. One submits just about every guy under 200 lbs., the other will quickly make anyone scream to submit.
My approach to MMA has always been to "learn/use what works". My BJJ is no-gi and I'm not interested in techniques that require a gi or 16 steps to complete. I started learning Catch within my first year of BJJ lessons. My BJJ classmates nicknamed me "the Catchwrestler" because I added and used several Catch techniques to my rolling style in class. My instructor and classmates were seeing me use some techniques and subs that they had never seen before. I would say BJJ is my core style, but I definitely have a larger arsenal of effective submissions/techniques that I have added to that from Catch.
As I said, with Catch and BJJ there are two different mindsets. BJJ has a more limited, and predictable, arsenal of techniques. Catch widens beyond BJJ's aresenal, and with its spontaneity and improvisational approach is less predictable than BJJ.
There is a DVD, a documentary that just came out from England called: "Catch: The Hold not Taken" http://www.riverhorse.tv/CATCH/BuyDVD/buy_index.htm , that gives an excellent history of Catchwrestling. The Catch lineage is traced, from its early practicioners to it's influence in wrestling in the USA, and MMA in Japan. There is a direct influence in the Japanese MMA/NHB practitioners, due to Cathwrestlers who went to Japan a generation ago and taught them.
See how Sakuraba compares with Royce Gracie, and you see, at the extremes, how Catch compares with BJJ.
I hope that Tony Cecchine, and the few living old masters and understudies of Catch, can revive and pass on the knowledge before it disappears. The little I have learned has been a been a definite plus. I wish there was a Catch school, and a Catchwrestling curriculum. The growing popularity of the NHB events and the desire to "learn and use what works", might help in that revival.
In any case. I have mats at my place, and a small group of guys who come over to practice BJJ/Catch. If you are ever in the area of San Diego, you are welcome to get in touch, and I'll be happy to swap some techniques with you.
Good luck.
[email protected]
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S
Soulfly
Guest
Catch_Shannon said:
Yeah, are you going to take EVERY THREAD that is catch related and link thoes two Bullshido threads to them?
Stop bringing back the dead.
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Soul,
I've liked most of your posts UNTIL NOW! (just kidding, lol). In all seriousness, damned right! When people are misinformed about CACC I am simply going to offer more information so people can research different perspectives themselves, when I can. Case in point:
LOL! Comparing either Furey/Cecchine (who both are have rather tenuous, and in Cecchine's case unprovable, connections to CACC grappling) and what they teach to the men that actually competed under CACC rules is not fair to the guys that put their time (and sweat) in on the mat.
Hope this helps,
Jake Shannon
Managing Director
Scientific Wrestling
I've liked most of your posts UNTIL NOW! (just kidding, lol). In all seriousness, damned right! When people are misinformed about CACC I am simply going to offer more information so people can research different perspectives themselves, when I can. Case in point:
LOL! Comparing either Furey/Cecchine (who both are have rather tenuous, and in Cecchine's case unprovable, connections to CACC grappling) and what they teach to the men that actually competed under CACC rules is not fair to the guys that put their time (and sweat) in on the mat.
Hope this helps,
Jake Shannon
Managing Director
Scientific Wrestling
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Your a good man. I have two of there encounters, which where both spot fests. Great stuff.dunefield said:
proteinwisdom
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Well, we now know what Jake was up to, posting the same links in every thread, in forum after forum: put the stink on Cecchine, remove his competition, PROFIT!
In all these years -- you know, during which he's become a Master Hypnotist, a Human Rights Investigator, a world-renowned polymath, an inventor (of a thousand years old Persian training tool), an author (cobbling together photocopies of books written by others and selling them as "authoritative Encyclopedias"), and a master of the orgasm -- it's a wonder he's had time to study catch wrestling at all...
At any rate, since Jake dropped his links here, and the thread still appears in Google, I'm going to leave this in case people happen by who want to know more about the story.
Pro Wrestling Reborn: Jake Shannon and Kris Iatskevich: Catch Wrestling's NEWEST Newest Crisis of Confidence
