Can Opener: Defense

[Foolkiller]

You can also switch to butterfly guard instead, the fact he is pulling your head up will help you close the distance and it should be easy to get underhooks to work butterfly guard sweeps from.

 

[MUCKYFINGERS]

You can also switch to butterfly guard instead, the fact he is pulling your head up will help you close the distance and it should be easy to get underhooks to work butterfly guard sweeps from.

If you have good enough balance doing the can opener, however, or not necessarily applying full force (just as long as you hold on and keep balance), it makes it hard for the bottom guy to do sweeps from the bf guard.

 

[muerteverde]

If he doesn'tn have it on quite yet, but I sense him going for it, I plant my heand on the mat and even arch my back a little bit. I had some guys at the BJJ club that used to like the canopener a lot, and since most of them were the huge strong, well balanced wreslter types, it was more dificult to counter so I learned to avoid it more than fight my way out of it. It is very hard to apply on someone who has their head flat on the ground and stiffended out.

 

[Terrier]

Exactly. It's the same way with the guillotine, cheap move, but you must know how to defend it or youll get caught.

I really don't agree that the guillotine is a cheap move in the slightest.

IMO the only reason you'll get subbed with a can opener most of the time is if you're too stubborn to open your guard, in which case it's your own fault, you have to be willing to move positions whenever it's needed if you want to do well.

 

[Bubble Boy]

Thanks for the information all.

This was the first time I had a can opener popped on me in about 3 years. Totally caught me off guard. In defense of the guy I was rolling with we did agree on anything goes grappling. He's training for a local NHB fight, and he's tough. Once I was in it I felt as if there was no escape. I fought it for about 15 seconds but then had to tap. My neck is very stiff today.

As you guys metioned, I think I kept my guard closed for some reason. His balance was very good, and my hips were weighted down heavily by his positioning. However when I think back, I think opening the guard, pushing away with my hands (btw, you can't push the face in judo, so I blanked on that idea), and scooting my hips out a bit may have done the trick, but it would have been very tough. What about prying the arms open a bit to get the elbows off your chest and then hugging?
I never even considered the arm bar. But I will now.
I also like the idea of attempting to transition to butterfly and then sitting up.
I also like whoever said avoid it in the first place by planting the back of your head on the mat.

At some point in the progression of the can opener is there no escape? At least without risking injury? Some of you are making it sound like it's easy to get out of, a no-brainer. That wasn't my experience the other night.

I also agree with those saying the can opener should still be practiced every now and then. The same with leg / knee / ankle techniques (even in judo where they are prohibited in competition).

BTW, in my second fight with this guy I tapped him with a guillotine, and I felt like a cheap whore.

Thanks again for counters and escapes. Keep 'em comin'...

 

[colinm]

bubbleboy, yeah you should pry their hands off your head, but do it by pummeling, not just pulling without any specific technique in mind. pummeling is just basically fighting for inside position and control. so if he's trying the canopener, open your guard, get your hips out, and reach one hand inside his arms (coming up from the bottom) and punch it through to the side of his neck and behind his head - like you are going for a head and elbow clinch. do it with both hands if he he's got an incredibly strong grip.

 

[Foolkiller]

If you have good enough balance doing the can opener, however, or not necessarily applying full force (just as long as you hold on and keep balance), it makes it hard for the bottom guy to do sweeps from the bf guard.

That's true and some guys even try hop straight over into full mount. However if the keep hold of the head or neck if he can pummel through and get overhooks it's relatively easy to get a sweep, sometimes even directly overhead so you can roll into mount. I have seen Babalu set up a guillotine in a similarly way before.

 

[Foolkiller]

Thanks for the information all.
At some point in the progression of the can opener is there no escape? At least without risking injury? Some of you are making it sound like it's easy to get out of, a no-brainer. That wasn't my experience the other night.

Some guys will sort of squat in your guard and apply the neck crank and that can be very dangerous however even then you can break guard and attempt to grab their ankles and pull them outwards but towards you so they in turn fall back, you can roll up and then get mount, but it's a matter of timing otherwise you can do more damage to yourself if they've already pulled you in too close. If they get your head under their chin, you are fucked.

 

[Bubble Boy]

bubbleboy, yeah you should pry their hands off your head, but do it by pummeling, not just pulling without any specific technique in mind. pummeling is just basically fighting for inside position and control. so if he's trying the canopener, open your guard, get your hips out, and reach one hand inside his arms (coming up from the bottom) and punch it through to the side of his neck and behind his head - like you are going for a head and elbow clinch. do it with both hands if he he's got an incredibly strong grip.

Now this makes sense to me. Just a little clarification: I'm going for a clinch right? Not pushing away. I'm trying to get close right?

 

[Bubble Boy]

Some guys will sort of squat in your guard and apply the neck crank and that can be very dangerous however even then you can break guard and attempt to grab their ankles and pull them outwards but towards you so they in turn fall back, you can roll up and then get mount, but it's a matter of timing otherwise you can do more damage to yourself if they've already pulled you in too close. If they get your head under their chin, you are fucked.

Ok, this makes sense too. Thanks. Seems a little risky.
Yeah, this guy was squating and had is elbows sunk into my chest. I was soooo fucked. I was miffed at myself for not knowing a defense after 5 steady years of judo. I got up, shook out my neck a little, and thought: "Time to get on sherdog and get some dirt for that hole in my game." One other note. This was no-gi. First time I've gone no-gi in about 6 months. Any tricks with the gi? Does anything change?

 

[Terrier]

At some point in the progression of the can opener is there no escape? At least without risking injury? Some of you are making it sound like it's easy to get out of, a no-brainer. That wasn't my experience the other night.

I learned the can opener defence from the Bas Rutten big DVDs of combat - the way he explains it makes it seem like a no brainer - and since doing it that's how i've felt about it too.

That's not to say some day someone won't come along and pull my head off to change my mind.

 

[Foolkiller]

Ok, this makes sense too. Thanks. Seems a little risky.
Yeah, this guy was squating and had is elbows sunk into my chest. I was soooo fucked. I was miffed at myself for not knowing a defense after 5 steady years of judo. I got up, shook out my neck a little, and thought: "Time to get on sherdog and get some dirt for that hole in my game." One other note. This was no-gi. First time I've gone no-gi in about 6 months. Any tricks with the gi? Does anything change?

The greater risk comes if you don't break guard and don't go into mount with your feet by the side of his hips but try maintain guard and roll up with your feet still together by the small of his back. If you still have your feet behind his back by tripping him you'll effectively be creating the pulling motion on your neck by making him fall backwards. Also be careful you don't headbutt the guy when you roll up.

 

[Half Boston Crab]

Your calling the guillotine cheap? How? It is just like any other move, it may be easy to get but that doesnt make it cheap.

Well, what I mean't was that it's a move that's easy to apply and also usually pretty easy to avoid, but once you're in it it can be pretty hard to get out of. That's why you get really pissed off when you're forced to tap to it.

 

[thecas]

I kept reading here that after releasing the guard, move 'outwards'. So does this mean ,relative to ya original position, in the direction of ya head? downwards? for wards, backwards? sideways?

Coz when its applied its frequently donw when u r fully on ya back(xcept 4 ya head part). So even if you release guard u will just stay there.. we gotta know which direction to push ourselves towards

 

[IliketoFight]

you can do what my brother did jam his thumbs in my eyes till I let go.

 

[Ybot]

What I like to do, if for some reason I don't want to open my guard (often times I've seen the can openner used more as a method for openning the guard to start a pass than for an actual submission), I'll take my hands crossing my arms at the wrists and sticking the blades of the hands in the carotid arteries, pushing away and scizoring my hands together. The more they pull the more pressure they put on their own neck. If that doesn't work I'll then scoot my hips out, but typicly they let go of the can openner.

 

[Enron Exec.]

Got caught with a can opener from hell the other night. As a Judo guy it's something I rarely have to deal with (not allowed in Judo). A visting submission wrestler (training for a cage fight) slapped an evil crank on me during rolling and I tapped like little bunny in Bambi's forest, and I'm still feeling the damage today. What's the undeniable best defense (or preferably counter) to a can opener? I don't want to feel this way ever again. You guys have helped me out before, now give me something good blokes...

break your gaurd and put your heels on his hips and roll and flip him over you or break your gaurd slide your hips and legs to a side and do a umpa

 

[Colby18***]

Alls i do for a can opener is when they reach back to grab my neck and execute the move i snake my hands on the outside and cross them..and then rest my forehead on my arms...as hes pulling in..

It takes all the pressure off the neck, because he cant crank it upwards due to teh fact that your forehead is resting on your arms...If that makes any sense. If not ill whip up a picture of it. works for me everytime and not too many ppl know of it.

 

[Waxon Waxoff]

The time to do the can opener is when you have your opponent flat on his back. The elbows and the head control really should pin his shoulders to the mat and limit his mobility greatly. If this isn't the case, then what in the hell does it matter. Odds are, the guy's a complete noob if he resorts to the can opener without even knowing how to do it properly.

Anyway, if someone does it right, I open my guard, sometimes going to butterfly hooks, sometimes just leaving my feet on the hips, and I frame off his face. This takes away enough of his leverage to make the crank ineffective. If I'm lucky, he's too stupid to notice that they're not getting anywhere, and he burns out his arms too. Another trick if the guy does it wrong is to post your forehead on his shoulder to stop the crank.

And has been mentioned, if my opponent is doing a great job of breaking my posture and holding me down, I'll use the can opener not as a submission, but as a way to bait my opponent into opening his guard. If he's cocky enough to go after an arm, I'm ready to counter it, and he's more or less given me the guard pass. Gauge the optimism of your response to your opponent's grappling ability

 

[thecas]

Alls i do for a can opener is when they reach back to grab my neck and execute the move i snake my hands on the outside and cross them..and then rest my forehead on my arms...as hes pulling in..

It takes all the pressure off the neck, because he cant crank it upwards due to teh fact that your forehead is resting on your arms...If that makes any sense. If not ill whip up a picture of it. works for me everytime and not too many ppl know of it.

Based on this principle, will a gr8 response b to just lean into your opponent n use his body to counter him pulling u 2 him?