International Can china beat the US?

[aerius]

Yeah, China has 4 times the US population and a MUCH higher tolerance for deaths and casualties.

The US only had 300,000 deaths during WWII and Americans are still traumatized from it. China had about 20 million. And they have a long history of extremely bloody wars and revolts.

In the unthinkable scenario where both countries have to send people to the meat grinder, China outlasts the US without a doubt. No way the American public accepts even 1 million deaths.

I generally agree, but I'm not entirely convinced that the US will fold after a million deaths. With the exception of the American Revolution, the US has never fought an existential war where the mainland was part of the battlefield, even in WW2 the lower 48 was never invaded, bombed, or hit with anything. We really don't know how the US public will react when the homeland starts taking hits from hostile forces, you might get something like 9/11 where the nation unites behind the military and is willing to do whatever it takes, but it's also possible that morale collapses and everything goes south as you've noted.

Either way, without the resources & industry behind it the US can't win in the long term, the question will be how long it can keep fighting before it goes under and how much damage it can do to everyone else.

 

[Cid]

I'm no expert but that's what I always thought based on their military budget.

Where's that weapons expert dude when you need him.

@GhostZ06 come out of the depths, I said USA couple probably win in a war with the entire world. What do you think about that?

It's laughably false.

US is a big economy but it's 26% of the global economy.

You already have a smaller military budget. So your entire premise isn't factual.
You have a smaller military.
We'd ramp up military spending because that's a thing governments can do.
We have an insane population advantage.
We have an insane industrial advantage.
Your war machine would fall to pieces because you rely on allied western nations for components (problem for us too but not the same extent) hell you even rely on China for components right now.
You would lose insane amounts of equipment, personnel and munitions stored around the world in military facilities because you wouldn't be able to defend them.
You would lose insane amounts of manufacturing capacity because America has allies produce weapons for them so they can fight wars anywhere on earth.
You would lose integral satellite communications facilities you've set up in countries like mine.
You'd have countries that are willing to let 10's of millions die. Something you will never do.
You'd lose shipping routes.
You'd lose access to global trade crushing you economically.
Access to resources.


The list could go on forever here.

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

It's laughably false.

US is a big economy but it's 26% of the global economy.

You already have a smaller military budget. So your entire premise isn't factual.
You have a smaller military.
We'd ramp up military spending because that's a thing governments can do.
We have an insane population advantage.
We have an insane industrial advantage.
Your war machine would fall to pieces because you rely on allied western nations for components (problem for us too but not the same extent) hell you even rely on China for components right now.
You would lose insane amounts of equipment, personnel and munitions stored around the world in military facilities because you wouldn't be able to defend them.
You would lose insane amounts of manufacturing capacity because America has allies produce weapons for them so they can fight wars anywhere on earth.
You would lose integral satellite communications facilities you've set up in countries like mine.
You'd have countries that are willing to let 10's of millions die. Something you will never do.
You'd lose shipping routes.
You'd lose access to global trade crushing you economically.
Access to resources.


The list could go on forever here.

Who's "we"? I imagine the rest of the world yea?

Also, to be clear, I'm Canadian.

 

[Sweater of AV]

I'm actually surprised at the amount of people that think China would stand a chance against the US.

I feel like the states could declare war on the entire world and win. Not sure how ignorant that sounds but I'm willing to be educated.

Yeah, the battlefield should be in Vietnam. Start small and go from there.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

I generally agree, but I'm not entirely convinced that the US will fold after a million deaths. With the exception of the American Revolution, the US has never fought an existential war where the mainland was part of the battlefield, even in WW2 the lower 48 was never invaded, bombed, or hit with anything. We really don't know how the US public will react when the homeland starts taking hits from hostile forces, you might get something like 9/11 where the nation unites behind the military and is willing to do whatever it takes, but it's also possible that morale collapses and everything goes south as you've noted.

Either way, without the resources & industry behind it the US can't win in the long term, the question will be how long it can keep fighting before it goes under and how much damage it can do to everyone else.

I am definitely tired of war, but it's just because most of the wars we get involved in I don't even believe we should be involved in them and I don't think they're worth our time or energy.

But if China wants a war with the United States, that's a real war, a moral and just war for us to fight? I think most people would be all in.

 

[GhostZ06]

The fact there are those in this thread that believe a conflict between China and US would or could ever be a one on one or quick and easy is fucking laughable. The US cannot beat China without help, and China can't beat the US without help. It literally is dependent on the allies and which side they fall on.

The US has a couple centuries of conflict experience to draw on, and you'd have to be a fucking idiot to think an American would ever just roll over or give up. It's not in their nature, and they are as patriotic as they come. America would go to war with Allah himself if the Saudis bought the NFL and shut it down. The Chinese have thousands of years of history to draw upon, they're pretty fucking smart, and they win a numbers game.

That being said, I absolutely believe with help that China can beat the US. And this comes from a Canadian who lives in a city that has nuclear weapons from both countries already aimed at it.

Having said all that... the prospect of living in a post-apocalyptic wasteland and not paying taxes or working ever again doesn't sound all that terrible sometimes. The whole no-internet thing will suck, but whatever, lol.

Can you tell me when the last time you heard of the Chinese navy doing anything signifgant? Hell did you notice they're 6th generation fighter prototype that was spotted had 3 engines? Wanna know why? Because they suck at making jet engines. Wanna know why they cant make nuclear powered carriers? Because they lack the skill and know how. they barley have any experience with Stealth. The J-20 stealth radar signature was Detected not only a few weeks after by the Indian air forces su-33 . F-22? no one has data or any signature of it what so ever.



Can you tell me what exactly they're doctrine is and why they need a blue water navy? They don't exactly border 2 oceans like we do One thing ill give them is they pop ships out insanely fast but thats a mix of they're shitty labor force and having a large commercial shipping industry. Congress is filled with retards that dont understand that we need to bulk up or engineering force and commercial ship industry.

 

[aerius]

Can you tell me when the last time you heard of the Chinese navy doing anything signifgant? Hell did you notice they're 6th generation fighter prototype that was spotted had 3 engines? Wanna know why? Because they suck at making jet engines. Wanna know why they cant make nuclear powered carriers? Because they lack the skill and know how. they barley have any experience with Stealth. The J-20 stealth radar signature was Detected not only a few weeks after by the Indian air forces su-33 . F-22? no one has data or any signature of it what so ever.

China couldn't make decent jet engines in the past since they only figured out how to make single crystal turbine blades around 5-6 years ago, they're going to catch up really fast now that they know how to make them. As for their J-20s being detected, well, that's what happens when they're flying with luneberg lenses installed. Every nation with stealth planes does this so that a)they can keep track of their planes during exercises, and b)it keeps potential enemies from getting an accurate radar profile of the planes. Also, India doesn't operate the Su-33, that plane is exclusive to the Russian navy, the IAF uses the Su-30MKI. The fact that you don't know this discredits everything you say.

 

[GhostZ06]

China couldn't make decent jet engines in the past since they only figured out how to make single crystal turbine blades around 5-6 years ago, they're going to catch up really fast now that they know how to make them. As for their J-20s being detected, well, that's what happens when they're flying with luneberg lenses installed. Every nation with stealth planes does this so that a)they can keep track of their planes during exercises, and b)it keeps potential enemies from getting an accurate radar profile of the planes. Also, India doesn't operate the Su-33, that plane is exclusive to the Russian navy, the IAF uses the Su-30MKI. The fact that you don't know this discredits everything you say.

you're joking right? Because i got the model of Su wrong this discredits me? LMAO. So many Flanker models are out there, Relax.


They are NOT catching up any time soon. A lot of American engine data is pretty classified.

 

[aerius]

you're joking right? Because i got the model of Su wrong this discredits me? LMAO. So many Flanker models are out there, Relax.


They are NOT catching up any time soon. A lot of American engine data is pretty classified.

It's not just mixing up your Flankers, it's all the other stuff as well such as not knowing the standard operating procedure for all stealth aircraft. They're not flown in full stealth configuration unless it's in combat or in secure airspace where they can't be scanned by potentially hostile radars. They'll have radar reflectors or external stores mounted when they're flying in civilian airspace or within radar range of non-friendly nations. That is why the Indians were able to track the J-20, not because its stealth sucks.

As for engines, once you have the materials tech the rest of the design is fairly easy. The reason Chinese engines have poor power & reliability is because they didn't have high temperature alloys for the blades in the turbine section, which is why they deformed or melted under high power loads and trashed the engine. They have those alloys now which instantly fixes the reliability problems, all they have to do now is up the compression ratio and mass flow to match the performance of US engines. This is trivial compared to figuring out how to make single crystal nickel-cobalt superalloys.

To summarize, you don't know anything about the SOP of stealth aircraft, can't get your Flankers straight, and you don't know anything about jet engine design and why the Chinese couldn't make good engines in the past. This is why I think you're a hack who's just reading shit off of Wikipedia, everything I've written in this and the previous post is common knowledge amongst those who actually have some degree of expertise in the aerospace field.

 

[Hdfi]

 

[PeterGriffin]

Can you tell me when the last time you heard of the Chinese navy doing anything signifgant? Hell did you notice they're 6th generation fighter prototype that was spotted had 3 engines? Wanna know why? Because they suck at making jet engines. Wanna know why they cant make nuclear powered carriers? Because they lack the skill and know how. they barley have any experience with Stealth. The J-20 stealth radar signature was Detected not only a few weeks after by the Indian air forces su-33 . F-22? no one has data or any signature of it what so ever.



Can you tell me what exactly they're doctrine is and why they need a blue water navy? They don't exactly border 2 oceans like we do One thing ill give them is they pop ships out insanely fast but thats a mix of they're shitty labor force and having a large commercial shipping industry. Congress is filled with retards that dont understand that we need to bulk up or engineering force and commercial ship industry.

Since the '90's the US has spent trillions waging war in the Middle East and Afghanistan, and that has come at at indirect costs besides lives. During that same time China has been investing heavily in the tech sector, infrastructure, communications, clean energy and military R&D. The technology gap there was between the US and China's is closing, whether Americans choose to accept it or not. I never said China is better or would win for sure, no need for anyone's feathers to get ruflled, I just said China could win with help, and they can.

Why does France, Egypt or India need a blue water navy? Why does the US need a blue water navy? Maybe the better question is WHY does the States NEED a blue water navy?

What has always baffled me about the US military is their seemingly compelling urge to offer up their military information to the rest of the world as a flex.. when 14 seconds after any announcement of an advancement, China's already studying tape and reverse-engineering ways they think the US pulled it off. I'd like to believe we know everything that China is capable of militarily and how shitty they are at keeping secrets, but that would be a little foolish.

Given enough opportunities, big brains, and time, and eventually China will get it right, or stumble upon a better way of doing what the US is trying to do first.

 

[aerius]

Let's see what your next SecDef has to say about a war with China (time stamped)

 

[Deleted member 110072]

I generally agree, but I'm not entirely convinced that the US will fold after a million deaths. With the exception of the American Revolution, the US has never fought an existential war where the mainland was part of the battlefield, even in WW2 the lower 48 was never invaded, bombed, or hit with anything. We really don't know how the US public will react when the homeland starts taking hits from hostile forces, you might get something like 9/11 where the nation unites behind the military and is willing to do whatever it takes, but it's also possible that morale collapses and everything goes south as you've noted.

Either way, without the resources & industry behind it the US can't win in the long term, the question will be how long it can keep fighting before it goes under and how much damage it can do to everyone else.

You could I spose have a situation sometime in the more long term future were the Chinese have a big military presence very close to the US, say the Mexicans become closely allied with them and you get big Chinese military bases along the boarder with the US.

My feeling is though long term the the US will probably make good on Trumps rhetoric and Canada, Greenland, Mexico and all of central America up to the Darian gap will be incorporated into it directly. The Latin countries really its just a question of cost, I'm guessing all of them would probably be not that hard to persuade to join the US but obviously would be a finical drag. I would argue the lack of a more overt US Empire is really because control via economics and miltiary threat rather than direct rule isnt just better PR its also much cheaper, the British Empire as much as anything ended because it was no longer profitable.

If the US is no longer in the position of being able to dominant via indirect control I suspect it may look to more direct control of the areas close to it.

 

[PEB]

Let's see what your next SecDef has to say about a war with China (time stamped)

Not a fan of Pete but Sean understands what I been saying for over a decade that crypto going to bankrupt us and our innovations more money will eventually be plowed into crypto then into our way of innovation. Here are just somethings will be impacted. Solid state batteries, quantum computing, generative AI, solar energy solutions , improvements to the grid, fusion nuclear energy development, flow batteries, quantum data security non of this will matter if big business is buying trillions into crypto.

 

[Natural Order]

At the end of the day, all the superpowers are in a nuclear stalemate. A traditional war would be ended by nuclear holocaust the moment one side side started losing. It's literally the only reason we're not up to WW6 right now. Without nukes, we'd still be popping off and swinging our dicks around every 20 years. Nobody wants to rule over a bunch of rubble.

MAD. Let's hope it's enough!

 

[Blayt7hh]

Just going based off what you're saying and taking it for granted. It does seem like the United States is completely asleep and setting itself up for the potential of massive failure if anything out of the ordinary should happen.

It seems absurd to me that we spend so much money on our defense and people can say things like you just said about it. It's infuriating even.

Personally I want a super powerful military. I just think that way myself I'm willing to get along with anyone I can. I'll go out of my way to stay out of trouble, but if it comes down to trouble I want to use overwhelming force on a person and I believe in that. We should have by far in a way the best military in the world and then just treat people kindly and do right by people. It really bothers me that we're not doing right by lots of people and letting our military slack off.

Yeah don’t take what he said for granted. The F35 has problems and there’s an argument to be made that it’s not worth the price I guess, but it’s also by far the most dangerous aircraft in existence. It has an enormous stand off range, can detect anything and everything and is virtually invisible on radars. If we go to war with China, it will be out there making short work of their Air Force. Really and truly the world doesn’t not have an answer for it right now.

Of course it is massively expensive which limits its numbers and usage. It still needs a place to land and refit like any plane. So yeah it has problems

 

[Richmma80]

Yeah don’t take what he said for granted. The F35 has problems and there’s an argument to be made that it’s not worth the price I guess, but it’s also by far the most dangerous aircraft in existence. It has an enormous stand off range, can detect anything and everything and is virtually invisible on radars. If we go to war with China, it will be out there making short work of their Air Force. Really and truly the world doesn’t not have an answer for it right now.

Of course it is massively expensive which limits its numbers and usage. It still needs a place to land and refit like any plane. So yeah it has problems

The Pentagon simulates war games with China and the result is we lose 100% of the time

 

[Rational Poster]

Can you explain this because that's the thing the article that I read seemwd to disagree with you on. They were saying that China is cranking out tons of submarines and tons of warships way more than we can and that it's not even close and that they're increasing their production rates over time.

They did talk about how it's counterbalanced by our technology being better, but the article that I read seemed to suggest that it wasn't going to matter with the kind of numbers that China's putting out.

This is the one that got me thinking how in the hell could we be asleep like that and not be producing way more ships and submarines.

Chinese submarines are just not very good, the majority are very old soviet designs, the majority are still diesel powered. They may be "cranking out tons" of warships, but they're inferior and dated designs incapable of long distance missions. The majority of their fleet has an operational range of about 1000km, which is basically a coastal vessel.

They have been making lots of boats, but just having lots of boats doesn't mean you have a powerful navy, they're much further behind when it comes to overall tonnage of vessels compared to the US, and especially compared to the US plus all their allies. The United States has 11 modern aircraft carriers with experienced and battle tested crews and pilots, the Chinese aircraft carriers are hardly in the same class and are essentially test craft for training and future development, not real war fighting vessels. Not to mention, Chinese carriers are also not nuclear powered, which severely limits the usefulness. These again are coast vessels for non-combat conditions. They're decades away from even coming up with designs let alone actually fielding aircraft carriers that have any parity with the US carriers.

They also have no naval tradition to speak of, putting men on boats does not mean you have a powerful navy. This is a craft that takes centuries of cumulative experience to master. Our designs and doctrines are just far far superior to the junkers the Chinese are producing, that's part of the reason we're not producing as many. Our ships are just way better and require significantly more expertise to build and train crews. China is still trying to learn how to launch and recover aircraft from their carriers, meanwhile we're literally policing the globe and every continent in the world with ours. Just an entirely different league.

We would just park our nuclear powered fleets outside of their navy's range and destroy any ship trying to enter China from any direction on earth. Taiwan might have a tough time, and might even fall, but without maritime imports that the US already guarantees the safety of, Chinese would be starving rather quick. Much of their annual food imports come from US and Brazil, if relations actually deteriorate to shooting missiles at each other, China's population will collapse under its own weight if the conflict lasts multiple years. China also relied heavily on Ukrainian grain imports, which also isn't an option anymore.


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[Deleted member 577981]

Chinese submarines are just not very good, the majority are very old soviet designs, the majority are still diesel powered. They may be "cranking out tons" of warships, but they're inferior and dated designs incapable of long distance missions. The majority of their fleet has an operational range of about 1000km, which is basically a coastal vessel.

They have been making lots of boats, but just having lots of boats doesn't mean you have a powerful navy, they're much further behind when it comes to overall tonnage of vessels compared to the US, and especially compared to the US plus all their allies. The United States has 11 modern aircraft carriers with experienced and battle tested crews and pilots, the Chinese aircraft carriers are hardly in the same class and are essentially test craft for training and future development, not real war fighting vessels. Not to mention, Chinese carriers are also not nuclear powered, which severely limits the usefulness. These again are coast vessels for non-combat conditions. They're decades away from even coming up with designs let alone actually fielding aircraft carriers that have any parity with the US carriers.

They also have no naval tradition to speak of, putting men on boats does not mean you have a powerful navy. This is a craft that takes centuries of cumulative experience to master. Our designs and doctrines are just far far superior to the junkers the Chinese are producing, that's part of the reason we're not producing as many. Our ships are just way better and require significantly more expertise to build and train crews. China is still trying to learn how to launch and recover aircraft from their carriers, meanwhile we're literally policing the globe and every continent in the world with ours. Just an entirely different league.

We would just park our nuclear powered fleets outside of their navy's range and destroy any ship trying to enter China from any direction on earth. Taiwan might have a tough time, and might even fall, but without maritime imports that the US already guarantees the safety of, Chinese would be starving rather quick. Much of their annual food imports come from US and Brazil, if relations actually deteriorate to shooting missiles at each other, China's population will collapse under its own weight if the conflict lasts multiple years. China also relied heavily on Ukrainian grain imports, which also isn't an option anymore.


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That's a hell of a good post man and puts things in perspective. Thank you so much for that.

 

[Rational Poster]

Let's see what your next SecDef has to say about a war with China (time stamped)

Man he really is as dumb as he appears to be.

The US pretty much always "loses" war games. That's the fucking point to examine and exploit potential weaknesses. They are learning exercises not actual strategy.

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