butterfly is the best guard

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by FLMikeATT, May 5, 2008.

  1. FLMikeATT

    FLMikeATT Purple Belt

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    I'm probably going to get some heat some this, but let me explain.

    IMO, butterfly guard is the guard that 'unifies' all guards. If you want to look at it from a flowchart point of view, butterfly is one step away from closed, half, x, under side mount, under mount, and various open guards. I'm including half butterfly because if you separate guards due to minor details, there are literally hundreds of guards.

    There are so many options from butterfly it's ridiculous. It's sweep city. Hook sweeps from both underhooks, overhooks, over/under, under/knee grip, etc. Ankle picks and knee picks. Armdrags and other ways to take the back. Hell, you can even snap down to front headlock or shoot a double from butterfly. I actually did both of these just 2 hours ago in class. I had a guy in buttefly and went for a double underhook sweep. He based so I came up to my knees and shot a double. In the same roll later on he tried to pass my butterfly and I sat up, grabbed his belt, snapped him down, and then took his back. I'm not even including x guard sweeps, which are pretty easy to set up from butterfly, and multitudinous.

    Also, there are tons of submissions which you can chain together with sweeps. I like setting up submissions from the half butterfly with the overhook, but you can do a few from straight butterfly. Gi chokes, triangle setups, guillotines, kneebars, etc. So many options.

    I would say butterfly has had the biggest impact on my game, even more so than half guard. I used to be a guard puller, and would only try shit from closed guard, and would fight like hell defending the pass. I would get my guard passed often, and would have to fight to retain guard or half guard. The only time I ever got on top was from hip bumps and pendelum sweeps, which any experienced white belt and above can defend. I hardly ever spent anytime in top position. Sure I got good at armbars/omos/triangles from guard, but my game had some serious holes.

    When I got good at butterfly, I found myself in side across, mount, and back position a lot more. I've been able to get subs recently that I've never been able to before thanks to sweeps from butterfly. In my first year and a half, I would say the ratio of subs from bottom vs top was something like 20:1. Now that ratio looks more like 5:10. I still get subs from the bottom occasionally, but I've been getting a lot of subs from the back, N/S, side across, and mount. I really feel like butterfly is the 'keystone' to my game now.



    thoughts?
     
  2. codemonkey76

    codemonkey76 Black Belt

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    I have only recently started to get BFG to work for me after gaining the necessary details and come to think of it do end up on top more, and since my top game sucks, i really nead to use BFG more.
     
  3. hayliks

    hayliks Banned Banned

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    This is an extremely subjective topic. I believe the open guard has more sweep, variation, submission options than the butterfly. Just because the BFG is "one step" from so many other guards doesn't make it any more powerful, you still would need to make a transition from one position to another in order to attack.

    That all said, good post and interesting perspective.
     
  4. FLMikeATT

    FLMikeATT Purple Belt

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    Yeah. It's so easy to work BFG also because you start on the knees in most jiu jitsu places. Or at least mostly everyone else does. I either start in the 'marcelo' position with both hooks extended, or combat base straight into BFG. It's worked wonders for my game.
     
  5. FLMikeATT

    FLMikeATT Purple Belt

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    I respect this. Open guard in all of it's variations is extremely dangerous, both sweep and submission wise. Fighting a guy with a killer open guard is a huge pain in the ass.

    Personally, it's more risky to me. When I play open guard, I find it harder to sweep, and it seems like I get my guard passed more. I'm pretty good with the 'feet on hips', spider guard, and 'lasso' guard, but I'm lacking an overall open guard game.

    The next big step I'm going to take in my game is to get a good open guard game. I have no DLR, a limited cross guard, and very basic 'feet on hips' and spider guard. I would like to get better at it, but for right now I'm working on my top game, BFG, and x guard.
     
  6. codemonkey76

    codemonkey76 Black Belt

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    i could only start to get butterfly to work, once i understood to play it side-on, so i post one arm behind me and only put 1 hook forward searching for and overhook or an underhook, i keep my shin straight up and down pressing on their chest and put my forehead on their collarbone
     
  7. FLMikeATT

    FLMikeATT Purple Belt

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    yep. It took me awhile to get these small details down. When I first started seriously playing BFG, I would often be flat on my back, head in the wrong position, etc, and get passed. After watching some instructionals, and listening to advise on this board, I started playing BFG the correct way.

    Sweeps are just so damn easy from BFG. I have to fight like hell to get a sweep from closed and open guard, but I hit the sweep from BFG 65-75% of the time. I've learned how to chain together sweeps when an opponent bases or defends, and enter into x guard if I feel like it. It's very high percentage for me.
     
  8. UrbanSavage**

    UrbanSavage** Pepe Silvia

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    I tend to agree, it's great for transitioning inbetween guards and I doubt anyone would develop any kind of a respectable guard without being able to work from butterfly guard.
     
  9. codemonkey76

    codemonkey76 Black Belt

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    I still don't have an X-guard to speak of, sometimes i can switch to X-guard with a lot of effort from the deep half-guard position, but i feel like i can get the sweep without even switching to X, so i normally don't.

    I am gonna start experimenting with Robson's Cross guard, after watching his Fusion instructional, it looks pretty slick.

    Yeah i started playing BFG flat on my back with double underhooks, and would be able to sweep like 10% of the time and get passed the rest of the time. My BFG at this stage was mostly learnt from watching MMA, unfortunately it is not very effective played like that, Then after learning the hook sweep correctly from my instructor and also watching a Flavio Almeida instructional where he stresses the importance of keeping the shin connected to the chest of the opponent, my BFG game has leaped in %
     
  10. WNYguy

    WNYguy Green Belt

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    We've been working a lot of butterfly guard lately and its finally coming together for me a bit. I think a lot of people give up on it too early, it does take more time to get down tha others, at least in my xp with it, but I am finally seeing what a solid guard it is.

    I agree with it being an essential in between guard. Lately it is the first one I look for when I'm recomposing, even before 1/2 guard if its at all possible.

    I have long legs so I will keep working it for sure.

    Also on this topic, I never really respected BFG until I sparred with a huy who plays it really well. Nothing is more frustrating than trying to pass a good BFG. When you get tired out, get ready to go flying!!!

    Great post. :icon_chee
     
  11. Vector_X

    Vector_X Brown Belt

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    I dunno to each his own, but mine has never been quite good enough.
     
  12. tinker_190

    tinker_190 Brown Belt

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    I really want to learn it, but haven't gotten a chance to start drilling some of it. I've ended up in it a few times rolling, but was lost.
     
  13. FLMikeATT

    FLMikeATT Purple Belt

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    Try Stephen Kesting's dvd. I don't have it myself, but I've heard great things about it.
     
  14. Zankou

    Zankou Bringing peace and love Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    It's 80% of what I play nowadays.

    Its virtues are legion: Works just as well nogi/mma, ties in perfectly with wrestling/half guard, greatly improves your escapes, fills in a lot of the gaps of the guard game, forces you to become proficient at hand/grip fighting, requires little to no flexibility, puts very little strain on your body (knees and back will thank you), is superb versus larger opponents, very difficult to leglock you, will help you achieve the elusive "flow," will force you to work your top game because you'll end up on top a lot.

    With all that said, my favorite guard is still cross guard -- it has the most offensive firepower of any guard, IMHO. But for a long time, I've just been focusing on butterfly. I plan to return to focus on cross guard in a year or so.

    One thing about learning butterfly btw ... you can't just learn a couple moves. You have to really devote yourself to butterfly for a substantial period to begin to make it work.
     
  15. the heed

    the heed Look at the size of that boy's heed.

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    I do love the butterfly guard..
    I mean majority of my game is the BTG and half guard
    but I don't think its the end all best guard
    I mean some people have a hard time playing the butterfly because how they are built and some people are just WAY better from full guard..

    IMO, its all how you play and what "WORKS" for you
     
  16. ro1em0de1

    ro1em0de1 Yurple Belt

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    i agree fully butterfly to x or butterfly to spider or butterfly to z guard is my base from bottom...
     
  17. tinker_190

    tinker_190 Brown Belt

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    I'll see if I can find a copy online (sorry I'm damn cheap).

    Any other DVD recommendations? I've been wanting to learn this guard. I'm nervous though because 99% of what I know is from full guard.
     
  18. Mikey Triangles

    Mikey Triangles Bending Joints the Wrong Way Since 1985

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    I said pretty much this same speech in class tonight about a half hour before you posted, lol. I swear I didn't copy
     
  19. FLMikeATT

    FLMikeATT Purple Belt

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    Yeah, you should definitely try to rectify that. The closed guard is great, but you need to be proficient in various other guards (open, butterfly, half) to be a good bottom player. BFG gets me to top position like no other which is why I enjoy playing it. Being on top beats the hell out of being on bottom. When I'm on top, I'm a lot more methodical and patient because I have time and energy to work, and it saves gas because you don't have a guy's weight on you constantly.

    As for others dvds, I've heard good things about Saulo, Marcelo, and Sperry, but I haven't seen them so I don't know what exactly they cover. Check out budovideos.com or other websites that cater to the martial arts crowd.
     
  20. FLMikeATT

    FLMikeATT Purple Belt

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    heh.

    Are you the instructor at your gym?
     

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