Bulgaria withdraws weightlifters from Olympics

[big_john127]

I'm not trying to get into a discussion about whether or not drugs make sense. The level playing field argument can be used to make an argument against and for drugs.

My point is simply that
(i) we have a sport
(ii) this sport has certain rules
(iii) the point of rules is that you either stick to them or question them in the context of a sports political discussion, but the point of rules is not try to cheat yourself around them
(iv) breaking the rules in this particular case is putting the existence of a whole sport at jeopardy.

I much prefer laxer rules with respect to performance enhancing drugs, but as a matter of fact we don't have these rules and this will certainly not change in the coming years.

I don't disagree with anything you are saying.
Cheating is cheating is cheating, no way around it.
I simply believe that nearly everyone is cheating and the rules should reflect that reality, not just who can mask it better.

 

[Deleted member 56619]

Greece got poped too. Crazy. Thats a shit load of olympians to get busted so close to the olympics. Really going to put a black cloud over the medal winners this year. Hopefully they dont pull the broadcasts of it. But if they do, they better fuckin bring back the boxing broadcast.

"In neighboring Greece, 11 weightlifters were suspended for two years earlier this month, also after testing positive for a steroid. Greece still plans to send a team of four weightlifters -- three men and a woman -- to the Beijing Games."

ESPN - Bulgarian weightlifters test positive for banned substance - Olympics

 

[takeahnase]

I don't disagree with anything you are saying.
Cheating is cheating is cheating, no way around it.
I simply believe that nearly everyone is cheating and the rules should reflect that reality, not just who can mask it better.

How would you modify the rules to reflect the reality that everybody is willing to cheat? Abolish them?

 

[theNuge]

Apparently they are trying to use the Sean Sherk defence. Why not? It worked pretty well for him.

Go away...

 

[flak]

How would you modify the rules to reflect the reality that everybody is willing to cheat? Abolish them?

I know you weren't asking me, but I say they should either abolish the rules against performance-enhancing drugs, or enforce the living shit out of them.

 

[Chaos Mitten**]

How would you modify the rules to reflect the reality that everybody is willing to cheat? Abolish them?

Like this.

 

[takeahnase]

I know you weren't asking me, but I say they should either abolish the rules against performance-enhancing drugs, or enforce the living shit out of them.

I think they are doing their best to enforce them. Obviously, there are deficencies here and there (corruption, lack of funds etc.), but it's not like the IWF and several national agencies are not trying.

 

[Deleted member 56619]

I would like to see more testing in all sports. Olympics, NFL, MMA, Boxing, etc. IMO there are TONS of athletes getting away with doping. I use to think we should just let them all cheat, makes for better competitors for us to watch. But now I dont think that, I now take a stance similar to Bas in that "Anyone who uses steroids is a pussy". That isnt an exact quote btw, but he said somethin similar about Kimo.

I do think we need to ramp up the drug testing efforts. Even with more drug testing, you never know if everything is legit. Olympics to me are always shady. Too much national pride and money going around. RJJ and that Ice Skating scandal make me feel there is way too much shady shit going on around the olympics.

 

[Merrill]

No comment on steriod use in athletics.

 

[Vedic]

I like the idea of a level playing field. One where everyone has the same advantages.

Then allow the sauce:icon_lol: I am one that believes in following the rules etc. But as a realist you have ot realize the only way to make it fair IS to allow them. Because not everyone is going to be honest when medals are at stake. That's life

 

[ciscokid1024]

I have no idea what the solution might be, but I hate the whole doping thing. I totally lost interest in the Tour de France when they booted a bunch of top riders right before the tour last year just because they were under suspicion. It seems so pervasive in just about every sport it takes a lot of the fun out of it for the fan. I want to see the best at their best, but you never know when the shadow of roids will fall.
If Big Tim beats Fedor I guarantee someone will say he was juicing.
It never ends...

 

[Vedic]

Not to mention it's basically M1T. I mean it has bad sides, and isn't outstanding by itself, which leads me to believe they were masking, and that couldn't be masked, or whoever helped them with it was not to bright. Either way I tried the PH/steroid back in the day a few time. The PCT on that was harder than tren and test. Odd, but not suprising

 

[Crono7]

When they were banned in the US, the FDA and some other health organizations disagreed no?

I blame Ben Johnson, lol

 

[the_harbinger]

Legalize steroids and all this stupid shit will disappear. Who cares if it's not the healthiest thing to do...being a professional athlete was never a "healthy" lifestyle anyway.

If curl monkeys in my gym can use gear, then Olympians sure as hell should be able too as well.

 

[Cactot]

I think that the anti-steroid thing is an act of futility. Scientists develop new performance enhancing chemicals far more quickly than any organization can create rules to ban them. Any time there is enough of an incentive (money / prestige / both), people will use any method possible to win. By the time any substance gets enough notoriety to earn a ban, the athletes have already long moved on since. The only people who are punished by these rules are those who:

A. Can not afford / do not have the contacts to acquire the black market (well grey most of the time, as many of the substances are too new to have any sort of laws prohibiting them) chemicals.

B. Are too "noble" to use performance enhancing substances.

In addition, some of the new substances are currently impractical to test for even if they DID know what to look for when testing. You can not perform a muscle biopsy on a athlete right before a competition, for example. If you know where to look, and what to look for (well... and have the money for them, they aren't cheap) there are substances you can buy with relative ease that are: incredible performance enhancers, legal, and virtually un-detectable short of a muscle biopsy. All you have to do is be willing to act as a lab rat with your body (since the long term effects are unknown), and I guarantee that as long as there are millions of dollars and huge amounts of fame and prestige at stake people will be willing to use them on the off chance that they lead to fame and fortune.

With that being said, is it better to acknowledge that everybody is a cheater and deal with it? Or is it better to pretend people are clean and just let the best cheaters dominate?

 

[Cactot]

When they were banned in the US, the FDA and some other health organizations disagreed no?

I blame Ben Johnson, lol

Yeah, and many research doctors as well. There has yet to be any studies that show significant long term side effects when used in "moderate" doses by adult males. The vast majority of the negative side effects are in children and women, nearly all the side effects for adult males are temporary and return to normal after stopping usage. (High blood pressure, worsening of lipid levels, gyno flare ups in males with pre-existing gyno issues) Roid rage is a complete load of shit, and alcohol and cigarettes are far more dangerous in the short and long term than steroids are.

 

[Donut62]

I think they are doing their best to enforce them. Obviously, there are deficencies here and there (corruption, lack of funds etc.), but it's not like the IWF and several national agencies are not trying.

And it's a big fucking waste of time because gene doping is at our door step. I imagine the Chinese already have it and it's probably going on in American athletics. The dirt poor Bulgarians are left trying to scrounge up old bottles of D-Bols and taking the fall.

 

[Donut62]

I would like to see more testing in all sports. Olympics, NFL, MMA, Boxing, etc. IMO there are TONS of athletes getting away with doping. I use to think we should just let them all cheat, makes for better competitors for us to watch. But now I dont think that, I now take a stance similar to Bas in that "Anyone who uses steroids is a pussy".

But everyone glosses over Bas shooting up morphine and getting suspended in his last fight. So the lesson is, steroids are bad, but opiates are for real men? Not to mention all the roid monsters like Kerr that Bas trained without batting an eye.

I do think we need to ramp up the drug testing efforts. Even with more drug testing, you never know if everything is legit.

Then why waste your fucking time? It took Patrick Arnold opening up a 1969 pharmocolgy textbook and finding a drug that was never produced by big pharm on a large scale to create the BALCO scandal. The drugs are always ahead of the testing. Unless you know what you are looking for, you can't find it. Imagine how much goes on that is never found out and never will be.

 

[takeahnase]

Then why waste your fucking time? It took Patrick Arnold opening up a 1969 pharmocolgy textbook and finding a drug that was never produced by big pharm on a large scale to create the BALCO scandal. The drugs are always ahead of the testing. Unless you know what you are looking for, you can't find it. Imagine how much goes on that is never found out and never will be.

From this it does not follow that one should allow drugs. Either you think that performance enhancing drugs are fine and should be allowed, or not, you shouldn't allow them just because tests will never be perfect. By that logic, you could allow anything, you will never catch all murderes or pedophiles, catch all drug dealers etc.

 

[Cactot]

From this it does not follow that one should allow drugs. Either you think that performance enhancing drugs are fine and should be allowed, or not, you shouldn't allow them just because tests will never be perfect. By that logic, you could allow anything, you will never catch all murderes or pedophiles, catch all drug dealers etc.

A few things:
1. There are a few key differences between murder/pedophilia and steroid/drugs: murder and pedophilia are not profitable, nor are they victimless. Drugs and steroids are at worst self destructive, at best harmless, they do not deserve to be classified along with violent crimes. The driving factors are completely different and thus should be regulated differently by the government.

2. Many drugs should be legal as well, it makes sense fiscally, logically, and ethically. Drug trafficking is a direct and very important factor in the crime rate. If you use the prohibition as an example, we could expect to see a HUGE decrease in crime based on legalization of many types of drugs, as well as a huge net profit to our government from the reduction in costs (DEA, Prisons, etc) and increase in tax revenue. I could write a dissertation on the negative effects of the drug war.


If you could not tell, I am pretty staunchly against laws designed to "protect people from themselves." We don't need a nanny state thank you, how bout people man up and take some responsibility for their own actions?