Bruce lee = goat

[Babba]

No, it just proves that most people really don't understand the inner workings of other nationalities beyond their own (and even that is often tenuous).

i think thats beyond most people on this forums scope sadly.

 

[Frode Falch]

My point is: its very easy to find dirt or something negative about most people in this world. But why bother

 

[SWK]

Haha this proves that you will find envy in every part of the world.

No, it just proves the quip that no man is hero to his own valet. And I don't think we disagree too much.

I agree with your sentiment that my previous post was one-sided. I could've made a list of all the positives. His movies were incredible. He was known to be generous to his disciples. But he's already got an abundance of hype. My post was deliberately anti-hype.

He's incredibly charismatic, and did things worthy of admiration. But being a great gungfu hero/mentor was not one of them. Traditional gungfu values are a lot like those of Japanese martial arts:

- Never to bully those weaker than you;
- To remain true in love;
- Emphasize the spiritual over the material;
- To be humble.

Bruce Lee did none of the above, although he propped himself up as the exemplar gungfu man, and a proponent of martial arts philosophy.

If you want a fair assessment, I'd agree with you that any ethical code is hopelessly idealistic, and almost anyone on earth would fall short.

But despite being well aware of all his character flaws, hardcore fans (including myself, otherwise I wouldn't have read his fourth-rate philosophy books) in Hong Kong love Bruce Lee anyway. But not because he was wise, or the baddest man on the planet, but because he was crazy charismatic and made amazing movies (look at the slew of cringeworthy MMA movies to see how hard it is to make a good fight flick).

Hero worship is fine, everyone does it to an extent, but be clear what you are worshipping them for.

Same thing with Arnold Schwarzenegger. Everyone knows he's got a really douchey side to him, but still admire him, justifiably, as a cultural icon. The difference is, globally, the Bruce Lee hype train >>> Arnold's.

 

[jensen34]

lol, no wonder you need a hero figure in your life, i bet your outlook is bleak as fuck. you use coupons?

Whoa whoa, what the fuck is wrong with using coupons? I just got a free regular drink with my crab fries...thank you coupon, u saved me $2.75!

 

[Jukai]

- When he practised with Gene Lebell, he had nothing for Gene Lebell's grappling. Bruce Lee would get fireman lifted into the air easily. Bruce Lee's martial prowess consists of what are essentially party tricks (albeit impressive ones), and beating people from traditional Chinese martial arts gyms.

Ok, I have to defer to you on much of what you are saying, but I've actually read a lot about what Lebell had to say about Bruce, and if there is ANY reason to believe Bruce was a great martial artist, it is because Gene spoke the world of him. He said Bruce was lightning fast and had kicks that laid him on his ass. Said he flipped over him once while grappling. Sure, Gene tossed Bruce around, Gene had 35 pounds on him. I believe everything else you said but I'm kinda shocked you added this part in.

 

[SWK]

Ok, I have to defer to you on much of what you are saying, but I've actually read a lot about what Lebell had to say about Bruce, and if there is ANY reason to believe Bruce was a great martial artist, it is because Gene spoke the world of him. He said Bruce was lightning fast and had kicks that laid him on his ass. Said he flipped over him once while grappling. Sure, Gene tossed Bruce around, Gene had 35 pounds on him. I believe everything else you said but I'm kinda shocked you added this part in.

Oh OK, you're probably right then. That bulletpoint was based off a documentary and the interview was with one of Bruce's relatives watching one of Bruce's sparring sessions with Lebell. It was long the lines of one of Lebell having Bruce in a fireman's carry, and Bruce saying "let me down, or I'll kill you!".

A lot of funny stuff in that documentary, I don't think it's on youtube yet though. When Bruce was a kid, he put a football (world cup football, not NFL) leather over a concrete block and challenged a friend to kick it as hard as he could. His friend did, and Bruce laughed his head off.

 

[Jukai]

Oh OK, you're probably right then. That bulletpoint was based off a documentary and the interview was with one of Bruce's relatives watching one of Bruce's sparring sessions with Lebell. It was long the lines of one of Lebell having Bruce in a fireman's carry, and Bruce saying "let me down, or I'll kill you!".

A lot of funny stuff in that documentary, I don't think it's on youtube yet though. When Bruce was a kid, he put a football (world cup football, not NFL) leather over a concrete block and challenged a friend to kick it as hard as he could. His friend did, and Bruce laughed his head off.

That wasn't in a sparring session. It was during a scene in the Green Hornet. Lebell jokingly picked up Bruce and Bruce didn't find it terribly funny.

 

[Khorney]

- He was obsessed about being rich and famous, despite his pretensions of being some sort of sage.

- Many of his movies keyed off racist and nationalist anti-Japanese sentiment, so that they would be more popular among the Chinese.

- He cheated on his wife repeatedly before and during his marriage.

- He was a bully with a huge ego. As a schoolboy, he would force others to do his homework for him. As an adult, he would resort to violence at small provocations. After he became a star, many kids would "challenge" Bruce Lee, and even though the kids were no real threat, Bruce Lee would hurt them badly.

I dont buy it. I think you either heard this from friends or just read it in some forumpost. Every single person I've heard talk about him said Lee was very friendly and generous. You have NO reliable facts that he was bully with an enormous ego as a child that was abusing children (even as an adult). You also have shown no evidence whatsoever that he cheated on his wife or being OBSESSED with riches and being famous.

Granted Lee was a human being, nobody is perfect. He's said himself in interviews that he had a bad temper for example, but if you are going to de-hype him. Don't sink this low man... Saying he was an adultering, abusive egomaniac that was obsessed with money and fame isn't believable or classy. If you're going to say things like that I suggest that you show at least some sort of evidence or source.

 

[apizur**]

I like how SWK gives everything in presentation form. I'm expecting powerpoints in the near future.


How about this:
Bruce Lee versus Mayweather?
wot now m8????

 

[Phlog]

I'd prefer to talk about him as a martial artist rather than a fighter. He was as much a fighter as Darren Brown is a wizard.

Also, I have not seen any convincing evidence that he was a visionary. It seems his martial philosophy was: take what works and make it your own. This has been the philosophy of a considerable percentage of all humans ever.

He was, demonstrably a great popularist and a consumate showman.

I'm not sure that he is that relevant today as he was the show, without him there are no more movies and his philosophy, built upon adoption and adaptations is now fossilised and the antithesis of anything he taught. He left nothing but the idea: do what you will. That I believe has been said before..

 

[SWK]

I dont buy it. I think you either heard this from friends or just read it in some forumpost. Every single person I've heard talk about him said Lee was very friendly and generous. You have NO reliable facts that he was bully with an enormous ego as a child that was abusing children (even as an adult). You also have shown no evidence whatsoever that he cheated on his wife or being OBSESSED with riches and being famous.

Granted Lee was a human being, nobody is perfect. He's said himself in interviews that he had a bad temper for example, but if you are going to de-hype him. Don't sink this low man... Saying he was an adultering, abusive egomaniac that was obsessed with money and fame isn't believable or classy. If you're going to say things like that I suggest that you show at least some sort of evidence or source.

Hahahahha, you come to Sherdog demanding responsible journalism? I just spent all day at work checking sources, you think I'll spend an hour finding sources for ten points just because a guy called Khorney said so? Still, I'll throw you a bone:

http://www.usportnews.com/sports/others/28120.html

 

[Phlog]

Hahahahha, you come to Sherdog demanding responsible journalism? I just spent all day at work checking sources, you think I'll spend an hour finding sources for ten points just because a guy called Khorney said so? Still, I'll throw you a bone:

http://www.usportnews.com/sports/others/28120.html

Touche! Bravo.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

He was obsessed about being rich and famous, despite his pretensions of being some sort of sage.

eh, im pretty sure he came from a well off family from my memory. from a quick round of google im seeing his moms family were already one of the wealthiest in Hong Kong before he even became a star so this is kind of an odd statement

 

[Ignoramus]

 

[larken]

With all due respect I find it unbelievable that people on this forum, without having ever met Lee or those who trained extensively with him, are making judgments on his character and abilities based on anecdotal stories from those in the Chinese community who only met him a handful of times! I would rather listen to those who trained and worked extensively with Lee rather than those on the outside in the Chinese community who have had anecdotal Chinese whispers passed down through the decades - wouldn't you? Do I believe Lee was the greatest fighter ever - of course not. No one can claim to be unless they've proven it as a career undertaking; world class martial artist - yes. could he fight - yes (see my next paragraph). How good was he? We'll never know so let's stop hypothesising behind our PC screens.

By the way I have studied JKD for 8 years. Do I compete? No but I've sparred so called fighters and went through the toughest regime of full contact drills that I could ever imagine (1 against 1; 1 against 2; 1 against 3). Did I always come off best - no, but I did more often than not, and I take it as a complement that I was always pitted against the heavyweights in class due to my ability (I'm 11 stone). Now I come from the Tommy Carruthers lineage. I'm not affiliated with him in anyway and have since gone on a different route as I was tired of taking one's gospel as the truth. Now I know what works when the sh1t hits the fan because i went through it week in week out and Lees techniques definitely resonate and work for me. It's only when you have lived and experienced JKD OR Jun Fan or whatever you want to call it; tested it in a live environment and 'get it' then you know that Lee was onto 'something' and begin to realise and believe that 'shit this guy knew what he was doing! Until you have sweated and drawn blood a bit, I don't think you can draw conclusions based on Internet research (info is unfortunately not governed). BTW I'm happy to show anyone a brief training clip if they are interested

Now my JKD process has been enlightening because very often I have arrived at my own answers only to find Lee reached the same. Now we didn't always 100% but most of the time at least 75%. On that basis it's hard to be that ignorant to say that he didn't go through the the same process of skill attainment and application that I did. In fact I don't think for one second I've even come close to his level.

I'm Chinese and can definitely say that the UK Chinese community hold Lee in high regard in respect it his abilities and what he has acheived - and yes we know he wasn't a perfect character either. We appreciate that he is a human being like the rest of us.

I can also say they rumours can get around the Chinese community very quickly and can be quickly distorted especially if you have rubbed the community the wrong way (and Lee did). As such I take everything I hear from the 'elders' with a pinch of salt.

I've also researched the infamous WJM fight and will say this: the Chinese don't like to lose face so you will never hear from WJM or any Chinese practioner that they have come off second best (and that goes for Lee too). I've read the book by WJM's student and will say it has a lot of conflicting facts; in fact all credibility is lost when it is claimed WJM could have used his 'secret techniques' to kill Lee (baloney which Lee argued his whole life). WJM also claims that the end of the fight, where he was knocked on his back was due to a trip and not the sustained pressure from Lee - again the credibility alarm bells ring. Yes Lee was not a saint but neither is WJM as he has been made out since; fact - WJM with a troupe of a dozen or so colleagues turn up at Lees kwoon to challenge him when he has his pregnant wife there - doesn't seem that honourable if you ask me. Anyone in Lees situation will kick off - me included. I would also say that a lot of the re-writing of history has been made by the associates of WJM whom despised Lee. It would be wrong to re-write history in this distorted basis. We wil never know what happened that day but it is obvious that Lee got his own way when it dawned on WJM the seriousness of the situation. That everyone seems to agree on.

 

[SWK]

Wow, Larking, you spent 8 years learning JKD?

I'm sorry to hear that.

 

[wilddeuces]

I never saw Bruce Lee as an inventor of new, ground-breaking ideas and techniques. What I saw was a man that was able to integrate 'stuff' (philosophy, combative techniques) into his own style. I think that Bruce wrote in a way that sounded like the stuff was his, but much of what we have are his notes that he has developed from harvesting data from other cultures. Jeet Kune Do is about absorbing ideas from what is around you, but only retaining what is useful ('hacking away at the unessential'). Very little was undiscovered before him, but very rarely was any of it comprehensively put together and made into a system that transcended a sport, or battlefield, or philospher's brain. In this sense I see him as very 'Roman'. What I mean by that is that he doesn't have many original thoughts (much like the Roman Empire, which was notorious for absorbing other cultures into its own), but he is more than willing to adapt other ideas into his own repertoire to improve upon them and himself and become something different from this combination of ideas. Something new out of something old, I suppose.

For what that's worth...

 

[Deleted member 466273]

His punches were fast, but nothing out of the ordinary in terms of force. His kicks were very powerful. This according to testers back in the 70s. I don't have the source.

I don't think anyone in the 70s is comparable to Lee techniqually. But that doesn't mean he could fight.... Joe lewis said he tried some sparring here and there, but was not trained in full contact.

 

[Barbadosdaluta]

Obviously he can be all of what I said. Why do I have to pick one? Just like you can be confused and with poor reading comprehension skills. And did you want a shoulder to cry on about the Republicans? That was some serious (and weird) reaching out for help out of nowhere right there.

He's a typical liberal, divorced with reality no wonder he's all in Bruce Lee's balls, typical mystical shit.

 

[Kenjamito]

Lol, I read only three pages of this thread but I'm just stunned at the dumb asses who can't tell or won't accept that Ignoramus was joking! Jesus Christ man appreciate a funny joke from time to time it's okay...some of you need to get out more seriously.