International BREXIT: Leave/Remain Referendum on June 23 Will Change Europe, No Matter the Outcome.

[Arkain2K]

9:19PM - Leave: British sovereignty is undermined by EU

Andrea Leadsom says it is "the truth" that 60% of Britain's laws are made in the EU, which has five presidents. She asks: "Can anyone name them?"

She says there are 10,000 EU officials who earn more than the British prime minister.

She adds that on more than 70 occasions Britain has been outvoted on setting new regulations.

Boris Johnson adds: "I think we’ve heard enough from Project Fear over the last couple of weeks, I really do.

"They go on and on about the single market … Since January 1993 there have been 27 other countries not in the EU that have done better than the UK at exporting goods into the single market.

"The best place of us is to be out of this morass, this supreme legal system. I’m afraid Sadiq Khan is completely wrong. The European Court of Justice is the supreme legal authority in our country."


9:21PM - 'The EU has outgrown its roots'

Gisela Stuart says: "I just don't accept that there is a trade off between trade and democracy ... what we've got now is an institution that has utterly outgrown its roots which were noble... the real difference was the introduction of the euro.

"They have to sort out their problems and the best way for us is to trade with the world don't be this inward looking bloc and above all you take back control over all the decision you have made .we are one in 28 with another 5 countries joining ..we will become increasing insignificant so lets take back control."


9:22PM - 'Nothing patriotic about Brexit'

Frances O'Grady, the TUC's general secretary, says "there is nothing patriotic" about voting for Brexit.

"I'm proud to be British but there is nothing patriotic about a lack of a plan as to what even would happen if we came out there's nothing patriotic about putting people's jobs at risk," she says.


9:29PM - Ruth Davidson: 'They've lied and you deserve the truth'

"Even Boris Johnson doesn't think there's going to be a United States of Europe. And I think there's a real question here that you're being asked to make a decision that's irreversible we cant change it, we wake up on Friday and we don't like it, and we're being sold it on a lie because they lied about the cost of Europe, they lied about Turkey's entrance to Europe, they lied about the European army because we've got a veto for that they put that in their leaflets and they've lied about this here tonight too and its not good enough you deserve the truth you deserve the truth."


9:33PM - Sadiq loses his cool

Sadiq Khan loses it (a little), saying: "Stay and fight don't quit! Why are you a quitter? We're better than that! We can do it! Be proud!"


9:38PM - EU is 'a failed state'

Over on the other side of the arena, Diane James, deputy chairman of Ukip, says the EU has become "a failed state".

Asked about Barack Obama's recent comments about Britain being "at the back of the queue" for trade deals if it leaves the EU, she says: "I'm not particularly interested in what President Obama says because he won't be president in a few months time."

 

[Arkain2K]

9:33PM - Meanwhile... Poland shows some love for Britain



Away from the debate, Poland has illuminated the Palace of Culture and Science in central Warsaw with a Union Flag.

"Stay with us. We need you in the EU," tweets Hanna Gronkiewicz, the Mayor of Warsaw.

 

[Arkain2K]

9:39PM - Boris on terrorism threats

On the threat of terrorism in London, the city's former mayor says: “I do worry about our security on the streets of this city … I think it absolutely extraordinary that the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg is telling our Home Secretary that she may not deport people with serious criminal convictions to other European countries or indeed people who have been arrested for serious terrorism offences such as Abu Hamza’s daughter in law.

“I think it’s absolutely amazing and how the Remain side have the cheek to come and tell us that we improve our security by staying in this organisation I do not understand.”

At a glance | What would Brexit mean for European security?
Crime and terrorism

Europol already has a framework for setting up operational level agreements with non-EU nations. It seems unlikely that if Brexit happens, that a bridging agreement could not quickly be implemented, and a more permanent agreement worked out quickly thereafter. The freedom of movement across the EU does make it more difficult for countries to stop suspects leaving or entering their country. This means Brexit would be a security bonus to both sides, as it would make suspects' movements more difficult.

Procurement
In theory joint projects offer cost savings through spreading the research investment over more national budgets, and ordering larger numbers. In practice, such projects try to fulfil the wishes of every nation involved, no matter how contradictory or specialist. Brexit could actually therefore improve the scenario for EU procurement integration, because Britain has very strong equipment requirements, making it difficult to accommodate.

Joint operations
The biggest problem for EU security will be that after the US, the next biggest military in terms of ability to support global operations is Britain. This will either mean other countries have to step up to the plate, or the EU will be limited to ‘regional’ security efforts. This means the EU will be weaker, but as has been said Britain would still be in Nato, so there would actually be no greater risk of an attack on Britain or its fellow European nations.

Referendum fever spreading
Brexit could of course have another effect on EU security: there are many other nations with groups that wish to leave or at least re-negotiation their terms of membership.

Read more about Brexit and European security

 

[panamaican]

Not an area I know a great deal about but I thought the EU was a trade arrangement? If the UK pulls out won't they still have to abide by the larger trade regulations in the EU member nations or will they have to negotiate completely new trade deals?

 

[Arkain2K]

9:44PM - Closing statements

Both sides have made their closing statements.

Ruth Davidson, the Scottish Conservative leader, makes the final statement for Remain:

"You have to be 100% sure because there's no going back on Friday morning and your decision could cost someone else their job.

"The Britain I love works with its friends and neighbours it doesn't walk away from them.

"Sadiq, Frances and I, we refuse to dismiss the experts, we listen to them ... they all agree that Britain is better off in, you are better off in.

"There is nothing more positive than having a stronger econ supporting jobs and that's why I believe you should vote remain thank you."

Boris Johnson says the contrast between the two sides is one of "fear" from remain and the "hope" of leave.

"They are woefully underestimating this country and what it can achieve," he insists.


9:49PM - An excitable crowd

Well, that's it from the debate. Now for the reaction and analysis!

The crowd of 6,000 people watching it were very excitable. There were cheers and applause throughout.

Here they are cheering on Boris Johnson at the end of his closing statement.

 

[Arkain2K]

10:03PM - Verdict: For all the talk of DIY recessions and sovereignty, immigration will decide the referendum

James Kirkup:

"Boris Johnson’s first words about immigration were telling: “We should celebrate immigrants and everything they do for our country.”

That’s a sign of how the Leave campaign is worried by recent Remain attempts to paint the Brexit camp’s calls for a new immigration policy as bigoted or racist. Sure enough, Sadiq Khan came in right on cue, accusing the Leavers of “Project Hate” and “scaremongering”, backed up by Frances O’Grady trying to link Leave to a former BNP member.

Remain believes that stigmatising Leavers over immigration can neutralise the Brexit campaign’s strongest weapon, but they met fierce resistance from Gisela Stuart, the German-born Labour MP who declared: “I am an immigrant” and insisted there is nothing bigoted about worrying that immigration affects public services.

Both sides will feel happy that they got their key messages across on immigration. But with no clear winner on the most emotive issue in the debate, the referendum result remains on a knife-edge."

 

[Arkain2K]

10:04PM - Verdict: Boris Johnson vs Ruth Davidson just had their first battle for the future of the Conservative Party

Juliet Samuel:

"Viewers expected sparks to fly between the former and current Mayors of London. But we didn’t expect the fireworks between Boris and Ruth Davidson, the Tories’ leader in Scotland.

Ms Davidson repeatedly harried Boris with a stock of inconvenient statements he’d made in the past. When Boris said that the EU is a job-destroying machine, Ms Davidson seized the floor to read out a list of quotes from Brexiteers suggesting that jobs “might or might not” be lost if we leave. “That is not good enough,” she declared, to applause.

Her lines were scripted but good, and as the debate went on, she relaxed and became better still. Boris largely wriggled free from her direct attacks, but she kept going and wasn't afraid to show passion.

Her best moment: listing security chiefs who support Remain and declaring that when they speak, "I listen!" She came across as honest, down-to-earth and fresh. She might not have pinned down Boris, but she gave him a run for his money."

 

[Arkain2K]

10:16PM - Lord Sugar kicks up a stink on Twitter

Pro-Remain Lord Sugar, star of The Apprentice, has created a furore on Twitter with a series of tweets about eurosceptic MP Gisela Stuart.





The Stronger In campaign has already denounced the comments as "completely unacceptable and inapprioriate", but Lord Sugar is not giving up on this one:

 

[Arkain2K]

BBC's Brexit Debate: Five Things We Learned
By Josh Lowe
6/21/16​

Thursday saw the two sides of Britain’s EU referendum debate squaring off at Wembley stadium in London, in front of an audience of thousands of voters—pro-Leave, pro-Remain and undecided.

Leave put up ex-London Mayor Boris Johnson , Labour MP Gisela Stuart and Energy Minister Andrea Leadsom to fight their corner, while the pro-EU side had newly-elected Labour London Mayor Sadiq Khan, Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson, and Frances O’Grady, General Secretary of the TUC. Here’s five things we learned:

The people against the elites?

One of the “Leave” campaign’s favorite lines of attack is that “Remain” represents the interests of the elite; the government, big corporations, and the international political and policy establishment. Tonight, the pro-EU side had a good shot at combatting that; all three of their main panellists grew up on a council estate, and a senior source in the campaign told Newsweek before the debate that, where the BBC had requested a business voice, they pushed for trade unionist O’Grady to highlight the jobs they say depend on the EU. O’Grady certainly lent the campaign some much-needed grit, railing against the “bankers” who “crashed the economy” and warning that Brexit would be a “gamble” with livelihoods. The question is whether it will be enough to coax Labour voters to the ballot box, and have them vote to stay in the bloc.


Project fear forever

Boris’s railing against “project fear” got one of the biggest cheers of the night from the crowd. And while Khan began the debate claiming his side would “make the positive and patriotic” case for a remain vote, it didn’t take long for the warnings/scaremongering (delete depending on which side you’re on) to come out. In particular, the pro-EU side have been doubling down in recent days on the line that a vote to leave is irreversible, something that David Cameron hammered home in a campaign appearance in front of Downing Street today. On Tuesday night, it fell to Davidson to push this line as often as she could, insisting that “You cannot change your mind on Friday,” and claiming more times than Newsweek could possibly count that Leave did not have a “plan” for a post-Brexit economy. “That’s not good enough,” she said. And repeated. And repeated.

Get Boris

An ITV debate earlier in the campaign saw pundits criticize the Remain campaign for focusing relentlessly on criticizing Johnson. There was less of that on Tuesday night, but Davidson in particular seemed keen to have a pop, railing at him almost every time he spoke in the debate’s early sections. Characteristically strident and better-briefed than Remain’s spokespeople have been in previous outings, she scored a good hit on him by quoting an LBC interview in which he claimed Turkey was unlikely to join the EU (“What’s changed in two months, Boris?” Davidson cried). But Boris, whose own performance was characteristically ebullient, did a good job of laughing off the attacks. “I’m a Turk!” he grinned, when he was accused of stoking anti-Turkish sentiment. And, wearing a wry smile, he hit back at Davidson’s claim that there is no “silver bullet” for controlling immigration with the shameless, simple message: “take back control!”

What’s the point?

Both sides made points on a theme that makes you wonder why Britain is even having this debate at all: a lot of what’s being talked about rests in Westminster, not Brussels. Leadsom responded to the Remain campaign’s questions on workers’ rights by pointing out that much legislation that protects workers and safeguards equality was passed by the British government (or, as Stuart put it, “I find it extraordinary that I’m being told that I can’t trust you the voter to actually get a government in that protects workers’ rights.”) Meanwhile, O’Grady punched back at the Leave campaign’s griping about immigration depressing wages by pointing to the impact of Conservative cuts passed by the British parliament on public sector pay and calling for more action in Westminster to help workers.

Something to prove

Both Khan and Davidson are rising stars of their parties, occasionally mentioned as having Prime Ministerial potential, and both showed why on Tuesday. Khan walked in to the biggest cheer, and confirmed his new status as a political A-lister with a strong, combative performance. He had some of the better hits on Boris, with the audience loving his admonishment of the Leave camp’s “project hate” on immigration. But Davidson was probably the standout performer. Her cry of “You deserve the truth!”—addressed straight to the audience—earned their biggest cheer.

http://www.newsweek.com/brexit-bbc-debate-wembley-five-best-things-know-472924?rx=us

 

[Arkain2K]

The final EU referendum debate, fact checked
June 21, 2016

​

“Ask yourself just one question”, said Gisela Stuart in the very first sentence of Tuesday's EU referendum debate.

We were drowning in questions by the end of the two-hour show on BBC, as the claims flew thick and fast. What to make of accusations that these were “big fat lies” or “blatant untruths”?

Analysing the various claims on Tuesday were fact-checking organisation Full Fact.


Fact-checking Remain claims

• Fact check: 'Brexit would cause a reduction in UK wages'
• Fact check: '500,000 jobs in London dependent on EU'
• Fact check: 'Turkey is not set to join the EU'
• Fact check: 'EU immigrants must leave UK if they don't find work in six months'
• Fact check: 'Migrants contribute more to UK economy than they take from it'
• Fact check: 'Irish border controls would be imposed in case of Brexit'

Fact-checking Leave claims

• Fact check: 'Only Antarctica has a slower growth rate than the EU'
• Fact check: 'Only 6% of UK businesses export to EU'
• Fact check: 'UK governments already provided rights for workers'
• Fact check: '510 million people from EU have uncontrolled access to UK'
• Fact check: 'Brexit means additional £10 billion for public services'
• Fact check: 'European Court is supreme authority in UK'
• Fact check: 'EU bureaucrats do not account for themselves fiscally'

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-06-21/the-eu-referendum-debate-fact-checked/

 

[Ruprecht]

Not an area I know a great deal about but I thought the EU was a trade arrangement? If the UK pulls out won't they still have to abide by the larger trade regulations in the EU member nations or will they have to negotiate completely new trade deals?

Yeah, as far as I can tell it just means that the UK will have less say in EU positions, and will shift from a default position of acceptance/compliance to a default of non-compliance/acceptance with EU regulation/agreements.

I've seen literally zero substantial nationalist arguments in favour of the Brexit (plenty of arguments in favour of nationalism, they just don't seem to effectively link their nationalist objectives to the specifics of the Brexit).

Another symbolic, lightning rod issue for general political dissatisfaction and globalisation anxiety.

 

[Space]

I've only seen a few segments but I don't get why a large portion of young Americans worship John Oliver.

Because he tells them what they want to hear, and he has a British accent, which makes him sound smarter.

It's a kind of cuck-lite. Imagine if the UK had a show with an American host telling them every week how shitty their country is. Oh wait.

 

[ZroC]

Even if we do leave, the economy will be fine. We are the United Kingdom. The EU needs us, more than we need it.

If the UK leaves the north and scotland will seperate. You won't be the UK anymore.

 

[Ruprecht]

...and he has a British accent, which makes him sound smarter.

Really? I've always thought it just makes him sound whiny.

Could be worse I guess. If he spends long enough in the US he might develop that nasal twang which makes him sound like a cheesy game show host.

 

[Space]

Really? I've always thought it just makes him sound whiny.

Could be worse I guess. If he spends long enough in the US he might develop that nasal twang which makes him sound like a cheesy game show host.

At high volumes, yes, English accents sound whiny.

John Oliver reminds me of English Bob. You guys remember English Bob, right? Hell, his little sidekick even looks like John Oliver.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I found Jon Stewart about 10 times more smug. Oliver is just a bad rip-off of Jon Stewart. I absolutely hate Jon Stewart's comedy and the smug clones, like John Oliver, that he spawned. There is some chick doing the same kind of thing and she is even worse than Stewart and Oliver.

Of course she's worse, she's a she.

 

[Awesomesauce]

John Oliver isn't a shill. Hes extremely partisan, a hack isn't unfair. I appreciate that he often brings issues up that are important and aren't discussed by most media. I sometimes find him funny, but I don't find him particularly intelligent. Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert are both very bright men. I don't think Oliver is in their class as an intellectual and I think that comes across in his presentation and material.

 

[lifelessheap]

Why wouldn't a US show focus on issues in the US? Also, do your own posts not also frequently criticize the US government?

Are there Americans brought over to the UK to shit all over them? We've got Piers, Oliver and the south African douche bag for the Daily Show. They all come to America to shit on Americans. They can fuck off.

 

[Arkain2K]

'Brits don't quit,' British Prime Minister tells voters in late pitch to remain in EU
By Tim Hume, CNN
June 21, 2016

​

London (CNN) British Prime Minister David Cameron is appealing to voters his age and older to think of the ramifications of a "Brexit" for future generations as he urged them to vote to remain in the European Union in Thursday's referendum.

"Brits don't quit," he said Tuesday,making a last-minute push in favor of the "Remain" case before reporters gathered outside 10 Downing Street.

"We get involved, we take a lead, we make a difference, we get things done," he said.

"If we left, our neighbors will go on meeting and making decisions that profoundly affect us, affect our country, affect our jobs -- but we wouldn't be there. They would be making decisions about us, but without us."

Cameron made a direct appeal to voters of his and older generations "to think about the hopes and dreams of your children and grandchildren" as they cast their votes in the national referendum.

He said that belonging to the EU was good for Britain's economy, security and international standing, and warned that a Brexit would be irreversible.

"There is no going back," he said.

Ahead of the critical decision this week, a record number of people have registered to vote in the referendum, according to figures published by the British Electoral Commission on Tuesday.

Just under 46.5 million people registered to vote, exceeding the previous record at 46.4 million for the parliamentary general elections in 2015.

Cameron said he knew from experience "that we are safer in Europe than out on our own."

"I've seen firsthand in these dangerous times how we can better cooperate with our friends and neighbors, how we can share information, track terrorists down, bring them to justice," he said.

"How alongside key allies like the French and the Germans, we're more effective at facing down threats and keeping people safe."

He said that belonging to the 28-member union amplifies Britain's power on the international stage, allowing it to promote the values it stands for through the world.

The "Leave" camp argues that Britain is better off out of the dysfunctional EU, claiming a Brexit would allow Britons to take back control of their country.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/21/europe/britain-referendum-cameron-speech/

 

[Arkain2K]

Brexit: What does the E.U referendum mean for the U.S?
Ryan Browne
Tue June 21, 2016

US President Barack Obama talks with British Prime Minister David Cameron as they walk onto the 3rd green at The Grove Golf Course near Watford in Hertfordshire, north of London, on April 23, 2016.​

(CNN) Brexit refers to the referendum the U.K. holdson Thursday to determine whether the country will remain in the 28-member European Union. The Britishdebate has largely revolved around economics, sovereignty, immigration and national identity. As the battle rages and polls show the outcome too close to call, here is a look at what it could mean for the U.S. if the U.K.votes to exit the EU:

What does Obama think about Brexit?

While American officials have consistently said the vote is a decision for the British people to make, one of the most visible proponents for the U.K.'s continued membership has been President Barack Obama.

Speaking alongside British Prime Minister David Cameron in London inApril, Obama called the referendum "a matter of deep interest to the United States because it affects our prospects as well. The United States wants a strong United Kingdom as a partner. And the United Kingdom is at its best when it's helping to lead a strong Europe."

But U.S. officials have also stressed that whatever the result of the vote, it will not change U.S.-U.K. relations. State Department spokesman John Kirby said last week, "We don't anticipate anything changing the special relationship that we have with the U.K."

Obama's view is not universally held among U.S. politicians. Three Republican senators wrote a letter to the President Monday saying they were "disturbed" by his "seeking to pressure" the U.K.

Sens. Ted Cruz, Mike Lee and Jeff Sessions wrote they think the U.S. should take no official position and that they will await the result of the referendum, but added that the vote "may open new opportunities for cooperation for our British friends and allies."

Why does the U.S. want the U.K. to stay in?

Americans who favor Britain remaining in the EU believe that having one of America's closest allies in the organization aligns the EU more closely with U.S. foreign policy objectives.

During his press conference in London, Obama said, "Americans want Britain's influence to grow, including within Europe."

"Because Britain's values and institutions are so strong and so sound, we want to make sure that that influence is heard, that it's felt, that it influences how other countries think about critical issues," he added.

The Atlantic Council'sFrances Burwell, an EU expert whosupports the U.K. remaining in the organization, points to the EU slapping sanctions on Iran for its nuclear program and on Russia for Moscow's annexation of Crimea as evidence that the U.K. has helped move the EU toward shared U.S. foreign policy objectives.

What does it mean for the fight against terrorism?

The U.K. and the U.S. have long had one of the world's closest intelligence-sharing relationships, dating back to World War II, and some officials believe that this allows the U.K. to play a critical role in boosting counterterrorism operations in Europe.

Rob Wainwright, director of the European Police Agency, orEuropol, told CNN's Clarissa Ward this month that Europe's security is strengthened by this strong U.S.-U.K. intelligence relationship.

"I think the threat that we face from terrorism and, indeed, many forms of international crime at the moment, are much more threatening and complex than we've seen at any point in the past," Wainwright said. "It requires Britain and, indeed, its European partners to enjoy the maximum possible cooperation, making use of course of their unique relationship with the Americans and in the intelligence community."

But appearing on the same program, Michael Howard, a "leave" supporter and former UK home secretary, said that cooperation on law enforcement and intelligence issues with Europe would continue even if the U.K. were to depart the EU.

"They're not so stupid as to cut off their nose to spite their face, just because we decide to leave the formal arrangements of the European Union," he said.

Britain and the U.S. also are both members of NATO, and most experts agree that Britain quitting the EU would likely have little impact since both sides on Brexit support continued U.K. membership in NATO.

Retired U.K. Army Col. Richard Kemp, a Brexit backer who commanded British forces in Afghanistan in 2003, told CNN that because the U.K. spends more on defense that any other EU member, a U.K. exit would prevent the EU from establishing its own military organization that could compete with NATO for limited defense resources among cash-strapped European countries.

But the commander of the U.S. Army in Europe, Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges, warned on the BBC thatif the EU begins to become unraveled, there "can't help but be a knock-on effect for the NATO alliance."

Could it hurt the US economy?

Yes. While the International Monetary Fund released a report Friday that found leaving the EU would primarily hurt the U.K. economy,itcould affect the U.S., too -- particularly if there's a significant negative market reaction.

Federal Reserve chairwoman Janet Yellen said last week that the vote "could have consequences for economic and financial conditions in global financial markets. If it does so, it could have consequences in turn for the U.S. economic outlook."

She added that the risk associated with Brexit factored into the Fed's recent decision to not raise interest rates.

How would it impact trade?

Britain is the U.S.'s seventh-largest trading partner. Brexit's affect on that commercewould depend largely on whether America signs a free trade deal with the UK or with the EU.

Advocates of Britain leaving the UK have signaled that such a U.S.-UK deal would be possible. But during his April press conference, Obama said that his priority was negotiating the deal with the EU.

Were the U.K. to exit the EU, Obama continued, "maybe some point down the line, there might be a U.K.-U.S. trade agreement, but it's not going to happen anytime soon."

"The U.K. is going to be in the back of the queue," the President said.

But the prospects for U.S.-EU deal, known as the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Pact(TTIP), are not looking particularly good, as the deal has been slammed by politicians on both sides of the Atlantic.

Britain's exit from the EU could make TTIP even less likely, perhaps giving a boost to the U.S.-U.K. trade deal.

However, Jeffrey Rathke, a former U.S. State Department official, said the current political climate in the U.S. might be hostile to any potential trade deal and he noted that while a UK deal "might not be at the back of the queue, that doesn't matter if the queue isn't moving."

What have Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton said?

Trump, who has expressed some support for Britain leaving the EU, said in May that the UK wouldn't be hurt "at all" in terms of trade negotiations with the U.S. if it exited the EU.

"Britain's been a great ally," he said in an interview with ITV's "Good Morning Britain" host Piers Morgan.

Clinton has echoed Obama's line on Brexit, with her senior policy adviser, Jake Sullivan, telling The Observer that the former secretary of state "has always valued a strong United Kingdom in a strong EU. And she values a strong British voice in the EU."

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/21/politics/what-brexit-means-for-the-united-states/index.html