International Brexit Discussions v11: U.K and Switzerland sign post-Brexit financial services deal

Why does Spain or Poland or Italy need to deal with China or the U.S. on eye level?

Because they want equal footing on economic and power negociations. I mean that's pretty obvious. You sound like they should be happy with being subordinates
 
Because they want equal footing on economic and power negociations. I mean that's pretty obvious. You sound like they should be happy with being subordinates

If they became part of a EU "superstate", they would not only be subordinates, but they would no longer even be sovereign countries.

These matters were already settled in the two World Wars, as well as the Soviet experiment . European countries have too much pride, too much history and culture, to allow themselves to have their affairs be dictated by another power, with interests divergent from their own.

As long as we stick to that mutual agreement to not interfere with how others wish to govern themselves, we will be just fine. Find common ground wherever it might exist, but respect the differences.

Leave the megalomaniacal empire-building games to others, we've already had our fill. It all crumbles to dust at the end of the day, as we saw happen to the British and French Empires, as well as the Soviet Union.
 
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If they became part of a EU "superstate", they would not only be subordinates, but they would no longer even be sovereign countries.

These matters were already settled in the two World Wars, as well as the Soviet experiment . European countries have too much pride, too much history and culture, to allow themselves to have their affairs be dictated by another power, with interests divergent from their own.

As long as we stick to that mutual agreement to not interfere with how others wish to govern themselves, we will be just fine. Find common ground wherever it might exist, but respect the differences.

Leave the megalomaniacal empire-building games to others, we've already had our fill. It all crumbles to dust at the end of the day, as we saw happen to the British and French Empires, as well as the Soviet Union.

I pretty much agree that European people all have their own culture, history and pride and shouldn't blend into one super state.

I was talking about being an united economical and international political front and that is totally doable and should be, or China, USA and to a lesser extent Russia would literally just put the european countries aside and rule the world with their own rules without them being able to do anything to that.

The debate about sovereignty is legit, and we should have it but there are not only two solutions which would be the UE like it is right now or no UE at all. There is a middle ground and it should be found trough an intelligent reform.
 
The UK pushed for expansion when Blair was elected. Major had argued for a deepening versus widening.

I would also not conflate the expansion of Nato with EU expansion to that extent, while they are related if that was the case Turkey would have gained admission.

So when we talk of UK policy I think that must be put into the context of the chronology of successive Governments.

Democratic representation through MEP's is nonsense.

No-one votes in European elections in the UK. Voter turnout is very low.

So it's sweet irony we would use the election of MEP's as a representation of democracy and decry Brexit which had historically high turnout.

I have no love for Boris Johnson or the the EU. I am an old Labour voter. We have been opposed to the EU since the start, as we knew it would be the destruction of the British worker.

Personally I wish Brexit never happened but it has and we need to live with it.

The UK did have a strong voice in Europe and had negotiated many opt outs. We did it through threatening to leave.

David Camerons reckless gamble threw 40 years of policy under the bus. Now we are out and there is no point crying.

At least Westminster politicians now can't blame Europe and the waste of space that are MEP's are gone. So theoretically the British electorate can hold its elected officials to account.

So you had democratic representation, in your elected MEP's but didn't bother to use it and somehow that's the fault of the EU ???

Not in the same way.

No more bendy banana bullshit.

They would say that regulations etc were imposed on them by Europe (utter bullshit btw).

White van man laps it up.

Who they gonna blame now?

Although I always think its funny. We are now very worried about an erosion of workers rights etc as we left the EU.

OUR WORKERS RIGHTS WERE STRONGER BEFORE WE JOINED THE EU.

Health and safety.

OUR HEALTH AND SAFETY PREDATES THEIRS.

Before we joined the EU our workers rights were very strong. Our regulations on housebuilding etc were stronger than the vast majority of EU nations.

Our rights have drastically been eroded while part of the EU!

We should have never joined in the first place and if you put the current EU to those who voted on EEC membership back in 73 they would say 'fuck no!'.

When I was younger at college doing A level politics it all seemed on the up and up. That a federal Europe was basically an inevitability. A good thing.

We have food banks in this country now. Literally people can't afford to eat.

I don't blame the EU for that and the first rule of statistics is correlation does not equal causation.

However old Labour politicians like Tony Benn did warn against the EU and the dangers of it and him a raging socialist now looks eerily prophetic.

So I while I think a lot of the Brexit vote was pure fearmongering I think a lot of the anti Brexit vote is too. Because these people have known nothing else but EU membership and don't understand the history and context of the UK's relationship with Europe.

So while I imagine the Tories want to turn us into some ridiculously unregulated economy, Covid has actually provided an opportunity. Every cloud has a silver lining. They have taken unprecedented intervention re the role of the state. Furloughs, partial renationalization of railways, unprecedented support for the NHS, feeding children. Moratoriums on debt and councils being forced to house the homeless. These are very un-Tory policies.

This could redefine the role of the state in a similar way that ww2 did. The British people now with Brexit and Covid now have a real opportunity to redefine the role of the state in the same way Attlees Government did. We just need to get these Tory Bastards OUT.

OUR WORKERS RIGHTS WERE STRONGER BEFORE WE JOINED THE EU. OUR HEALTH AND SAFETY PREDATES THEIRS.

The EU set minimum standards across the board for these, as part of the single market. It did not force you to drop yours, once again that's down to successive UK governments, that UK citizens voted for.

Everything you've listed after that is down to austerity imposed by UK governments. The same UK government that voted against feeding children until they were shamed into doing something by Rashford. Leaving the EU will solve nothing, all it's done is handed the torys more power to continue shifting money to their friends and backers.

Unless of course there's some magic plan to replace the lost trade that's happening ?
Less trade = less taxes = less money to spend = continued cut backs for everyone, apart from the tax dodgers and disaster capitalists like Odey

 
If they became part of a EU "superstate", they would not only be subordinates, but they would no longer even be sovereign countries.

These matters were already settled in the two World Wars, as well as the Soviet experiment . European countries have too much pride, too much history and culture, to allow themselves to have their affairs be dictated by another power, with interests divergent from their own.

As long as we stick to that mutual agreement to not interfere with how others wish to govern themselves, we will be just fine. Find common ground wherever it might exist, but respect the differences.

Leave the megalomaniacal empire-building games to others, we've already had our fill. It all crumbles to dust at the end of the day, as we saw happen to the British and French Empires, as well as the Soviet Union.

Soviet was broken up by the elites in Russia and Ukraine on purpose and a non commie version is being reformed and is the way forward. Same in South America. If the races get along and arent too far apart genetic similarity theory holds the empire can work especially if classes are respected or a caste exists and a collectivist society. The way forward is regional supernational state. The EU will grow just watch
 
I am wondering what "third" options there are for Scotland and NI. I mean it does seem like there is a strong push for independence, and while a lot can happen once BoJo starts the propaganda machine and starts offering money, the tide seems to have turned against the Status quo.

But getting to independence would imply a lot of things that I am not sure both countries arr ready for. So is there like a third option: maximum autonomy?
 
I am wondering what "third" options there are for Scotland and NI. I mean it does seem like there is a strong push for independence, and while a lot can happen once BoJo starts the propaganda machine and starts offering money, the tide seems to have turned against the Status quo.

But getting to independence would imply a lot of things that I am not sure both countries arr ready for. So is there like a third option: maximum autonomy?

I think that Sturgeons prefered option is a sort of Super Max devolution with all the benefits and non of the drawbacks her push for a referendum that will not have legal grounding smacks of a negotiating ploy , it will play well with her base and give her some clout in negotiations .
 
I am wondering what "third" options there are for Scotland and NI. I mean it does seem like there is a strong push for independence, and while a lot can happen once BoJo starts the propaganda machine and starts offering money, the tide seems to have turned against the Status quo.

But getting to independence would imply a lot of things that I am not sure both countries arr ready for. So is there like a third option: maximum autonomy?

Join Ireland and form the Celtic Union! - instant access to the EU.
 
Join Ireland and form the Celtic Union! - instant access to the EU.

My theory is that if Scotland go independent then the PULs up North will want to join the Scots rather than unity with the dreaded South.

Keep the queen as Scottish head of state and they don't even have to jump through any mental hoops.
 
I would recommend those left wingers who are opposed to Brexit listen to a real left winger.

A man who lived his life by democratic and socialist principles.

You should rethink your position if you end up agreeing with socialists.
 
Soviet was broken up by the elites in Russia and Ukraine on purpose and a non commie version is being reformed and is the way forward. Same in South America. If the races get along and arent too far apart genetic similarity theory holds the empire can work especially if classes are respected or a caste exists and a collectivist society. The way forward is regional supernational state. The EU will grow just watch

Can i have what you are smoking?
 
Can i have what you are smoking?

No you are a simple narrow minded man. Who refuses to believe you are ever wrong or that you dont know much at all. You think only what is reported is fact. You have zero ability to think outside the box. It is why you unhappy yes

Yes

@edit @Rod1 do forgive ny rude response. But think outside the box!
 
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I think that Sturgeons prefered option is a sort of Super Max devolution with all the benefits and non of the drawbacks her push for a referendum that will not have legal grounding smacks of a negotiating ploy , it will play well with her base and give her some clout in negotiations .

Either way is good for Scots but if they want true soveriengty then indepndence is what they need.
 
What Philip Hammond's Brexit candour tells us about politics

"Philip Hammond has given an interview that has once more ripped open the wounds of the Conservative party over Brexit. He says some deliberately revealing things: that Theresa May genuinely had no idea what sort of a Brexit she intended, so that when she made him chancellor after the referendum. “I sat in the cabinet room on that evening – and the only other person in the room was Fiona Hill – I did ask her about Brexit, and she said to me, ‘Brexit means Brexit.’ That was it. That was the only discussion we had about it.”

“I think she believed that she could park Brexit as just something we will get done: ‘It has been decided. Now let’s move on, and let me tell you about the Theresa May vision of the future’ … what the masterplan was, she didn’t know – because Nick Timothy hadn’t formulated it at that stage.”

And his character sketch of the man who had to negotiate with the EU as Brexit secretary is unforgettable: “David [Davis] … was the trouble-shooter for Tate & Lyle. When there was a problem, they sent David Davis. Shut down a refinery, fire a load of people, get rid of the troublemakers: the bare-knuckle fighter. That’s how he liked to see himself. David Davis’ approach to negotiation is you slap it on the table, you lean across, and you eyeball them. If they don’t give way immediately, you say, ‘I’ll see you round the back.’ That was always his view on this.”

He believes that the person ultimately responsible for Brexit was Tony Blair, who allowed unlimited immigration from eastern Europe after 2005 – but he also believes that something like Blair’s policy was essential and quite right. Even a Britain that managed its own borders would follow it: “We’d decide our regime and then, in practice, let in hundreds of thousands of European workers because our economy would have collapsed without them.”

About David Cameron’s repeated promises to bring down immigration, Hammond says: “No one in the senior ranks of the Tory party, I don’t think – at that time ever believed that this was a pledge that would be delivered in practice … It was never a credible proposition.”

Similarly, he takes for granted that when he was chancellor, the prime minister would try to mislead him, and she would try to mislead his enemies in cabinet as well. It was all part of the game. There was a certain tactical skill in doing so without actually saying anything false – simply allowing the other player to believe it – but the intention to mislead was taken for granted."

[Guardian]
 
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