Bow Down To The NFL GOAT

[Swiftie]

Police have located Brady's Super Bowl jersey.

 

[rearnakedchoke]

Greatest ever. People love to give belichick the credit. Bill is good. But lets not forget he had a losing regular season and playoff record before tom. He was 0-2 with bledsoe the year tom took over and won the superbowl.

Tom is GOAT!

 

[paratiddies]

Greatest ever. People love to give belichick the credit. Bill is good. But lets not forget he had a losing regular season and playoff record before tom. He was 0-2 with bledsoe the year tom took over and won the superbowl.

Tom is GOAT!

Bill's gone 11-5 with Cassell (who wasn't even good enough to start a game in college) and 3-1 with Garoppolo/Brissett the two times Brady has been out. That's a 70% winning percentage without Brady since he won the job yet most of the people in this thread seem to think that no one else could've done what Brady's done, he's always got subpar talent around him, etc

Like I've said Brady's great, but he's ended up in one of the best QB situations ever and is 3 or 4 great plays that other people have made from being 1-6 or 2-5 in Super Bowls

 

[rearnakedchoke]

Bill's gone 11-5 with Cassell (who wasn't even good enough to start a game in college) and 3-1 with Garoppolo/Brissett the two times Brady has been out. That's a 70% winning percentage without Brady since he won the job yet most of the people in this thread seem to think that no one else could've done what Brady's done, he's always got subpar talent around him, etc

Like I've said Brady's great, but he's ended up in one of the best QB situations ever and is 3 or 4 great plays that other people have made from being 1-6 or 2-5 in Super Bowls

They went 11-5 with cassell and didnt make the playoffs. What was his record with clevland? Or the year before brady played?
Brady made Bill, not the other way around.

 

[paratiddies]

They went 11-5 with cassell and didnt make the playoffs. What was his record with clevland? Or the year before brady played?
Brady made Bill, not the other way around.

My argument is that there's a lot more talent on the Patriots teams that Brady has been on than people want to give them credit for. He's not some force of nature that would go to any other team and drag them to Super Bowls, he's had a lot of help just like any other QB that's had success - and probably more based on what a lot of other top QB's teams have done when they've missed time

 

[rearnakedchoke]

My argument is that there's a lot more talent on the Patriots teams that Brady has been on than people want to give them credit for. He's not some force of nature that would go to any other team and drag them to Super Bowls, he's had a lot of help just like any other QB that's had success - and probably more based on what a lot of other top QB's teams have done when they've missed time

That is just speculation. What we do know is that he has taken multiple teams over the last 16?or so years deep into the playoffs or all the way to a superbowl win. No other player but say joe montana has done that. We will never know what would have happened if he got drafted by say the chargers. (Sorry bolt fans). What he know is he is the only player on the team that won five superbowls.

 

[rearnakedchoke]

My argument is that there's a lot more talent on the Patriots teams that Brady has been on than people want to give them credit for. He's not some force of nature that would go to any other team and drag them to Super Bowls, he's had a lot of help just like any other QB that's had success - and probably more based on what a lot of other top QB's teams have done when they've missed time

Great article.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...s-insufferable-success/?addata=espn:frontpage

 

[Zookeeper Gabe]

It's great, it's like Trump winning all over again! The haters and the commies can SUCK IT!!!

Trump is a horrible human being and the most petty piece of shit I've ever seen.

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

Bill's gone 11-5 with Cassell (who wasn't even good enough to start a game in college) and 3-1 with Garoppolo/Brissett the two times Brady has been out. That's a 70% winning percentage without Brady since he won the job yet most of the people in this thread seem to think that no one else could've done what Brady's done, he's always got subpar talent around him, etc

Like I've said Brady's great, but he's ended up in one of the best QB situations ever and is 3 or 4 great plays that other people have made from being 1-6 or 2-5 in Super Bowls

He's also a few plays from having 8 SB's. 4 yards against Indy 2006, Helmet, Manningham/Hail Marry to Gronk.

That's also a ridiculously awful argument. How many titles would Jordan have without Pippen, John Paxson, Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Horace Grant, Denis Rodman, all making clutch plays for years? How many titles would Lebron have without Wade, Ray Allen, Chris Bosh and Kyrie?

The Pats went 5-11 with Bledsoe in 2000. In 2001 Bledsoe goes down, Brady takes over and goes 11-5 and wins the SB against one of the greatest teams by that time. So yes, he lucked out taking a losing franchise and turning it into a 15 years and running dynasty.

Of course you're using the 11-5 Cassell argument when in reality you haven't thought it through at all. The 2007 Pats were 16-0 in the regular season, breaking every offensive record and being a fluke play from going 19-0. The 2008 Pats without Brady missed the playoffs. Since 2003 the only season in which the Pats missed the playoffs was 2008. No Brady=no playoff, let alone a Super Bowl. It was the same team with a far easier schedule than 2007.

At this point it's pure contrarianism, arguing for the sake of it. ''I don't like Brady and the Patriots so it's my opinion that he's not the greatest''. That's basically what all the arguments boil down to.

 

[kuromusha]

Its time to ditch "the Michael Jordan of". Brady is the greatest American athlete of all time!

Known degenerate won 6 rings and has never lost a Finals (in a watered down era)

 

[metal]

Some dude who has the same number of Super Bowls as his little brother

At least his Eli wasnt carried to one by an elite defense.

 

[metal]

Known degenerate won 6 rings and has never lost a Finals (in a watered down era)

Spoiler

 

[surgeyou1]

At least his Eli wasnt carried to one by an elite defense.

What? 2007 Giants didn't have an elite defense?

 

[paratiddies]

He's also a few plays from having 8 SB's. 4 yards against Indy 2006, Helmet, Manningham/Hail Marry to Gronk.

That's also a ridiculously awful argument. How many titles would Jordan have without Pippen, John Paxson, Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Horace Grant, Denis Rodman, all making clutch plays for years? How many titles would Lebron have without Wade, Ray Allen, Chris Bosh and Kyrie?

Of course everybody needs help to win titles, that's the whole point of my argument - he's had much more help than most want to give him credit for. In the last 2 Super Bowls he's been watching from the sidelines as Malcom Butler ended one game with maybe the biggest INT in NFL history and in the other was looking at being 2 scores down with about 3 minutes left when Flowers had a huge sack that led to the Falcons getting knocked out of FG range - not to mention the sack/strip before that which turned the game around. As great as Brady is, he's been praying for the defense to bail them out at the end of the last 2 SB's

Of course you're using the 11-5 Cassell argument when in reality you haven't thought it through at all. The 2007 Pats were 16-0 in the regular season, breaking every offensive record and being a fluke play from going 19-0. The 2008 Pats without Brady missed the playoffs. Since 2003 the only season in which the Pats missed the playoffs was 2008. No Brady=no playoff, let alone a Super Bowl. It was the same team with a far easier schedule than 2007.

How did the Pats have a much easier schedule in 2008? They'd just gone 16-0 and finished first the year before, meaning that they got a first place schedule the next year (2008). The easier schedule would be 2009 with Brady back when they actually won one fewer game than with Cassell lol. And by the way, what has Cassell done since he left NE? Just more evidence that the NE QB job is as cushy as it gets, the guy hadn't started a game since high school and went 11-5 when he got plugged in. But no, no way any other QB in NFL history could do what Brady's done

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

Of course everybody needs help to win titles, that's the whole point of my argument - he's had much more help than most want to give him credit for. In the last 2 Super Bowls he's been watching from the sidelines as Malcom Butler ended one game with maybe the biggest INT in NFL history and in the other was looking at being 2 scores down with about 3 minutes left when Flowers had a huge sack that led to the Falcons getting knocked out of FG range - not to mention the sack/strip before that which turned the game around. As great as Brady is, he's been praying for the defense to bail them out at the end of the last 2 SB's



How did the Pats have a much easier schedule in 2008? They'd just gone 16-0 and finished first the year before, meaning that they got a first place schedule the next year (2008). The easier schedule would be 2009 with Brady back when they actually won one fewer game than with Cassell lol. And by the way, what has Cassell done since he left NE? Just more evidence that the NE QB job is as cushy as it gets, the guy hadn't started a game since high school and went 11-5 when he got plugged in. But no, no way any other QB in NFL history could do what Brady's done

Why was Butler's interception needed in the first place? As in the two previous Super Bowl's Brady gave the team the lead with 3 or less minutes to go and as in the two previous SB's the defense couldn't defend for shit. If Seattle makes that one yard that would have been 3 straight Super Bowl's where the defense is a stop away from winning it all after a Brady run gives NE the lead and they (meaning Butler) finally made one stop.

Brady has SIX game winning/game leading 4-th quarter drives out of seven Super Bowl's. The only other one is the Eagles Super Bowl where the Pats were leading by three and his TD drive late in the 4-th gave them a 10 point lead.

Here are all of the vaunted teams Cassell beat in 2008:

St Louis Rams 2-14
Chiefs 2-14
Seahawks 4-12
Raiders 5-11
49ers 7-9
Bills 7-9
Broncos 8-8
Cardinals 9-7 (#4 NFC)
Jets 9-7
11-5 Miami (#3 AFC)

Points difference for the season: +101 Average margin per game: 6.3 points per game
Cassell Stats: 21 TD 11 INT

Here are the teams among the 18 Brady beat in 2007:

Colts 13-3 (#2 AFC)
Cowboys 13-3 (#1 NFC)
Chargers 11-5 (#3 AFC)
Steelers 10-6 (#4 AFC)
Browns 10-6
Giants 10-6 (#5 NFC)

Playoffs

11-5 Jags (#3 AFC)
11-5 Chargers (#5 AFC)

Points difference for the season: +315 Average margin of victory: 19.6 points per game
Brady Stats: 50 TD 8 INT

If you don't see the huge difference and you probably won't, don't even bother responding.

 

[Plissken]

He's also a few plays from having 8 SB's. 4 yards against Indy 2006, Helmet, Manningham/Hail Marry to Gronk.

I'd say he could have easily gotten 9 with a few small changes (sometimes multiple chances at one change in a game).

-I think it was 2007 where a simple correct call of forward progress after a receiver caught the ball, and they would have been able to have a new set of downs and run down the clock significantly near the end of the game (Indy ended up getting the ball back and having enough time to score, they would not have had enough time to score if they tried to score using the same amount of time they ended up scoring in. I don't think the Pats would have had much trouble beating the Grossman Bears team (as much as I like the Bears).
-2008 SB Brady had that ankle (or was it an achilles tendon?) injury which made things tougher with the Giants' pass rush, and not only was there the helmet catch, but the botched easy interception from Samuel.
-2012 with the Welker drop that would have sealed it, and an injured Gronk playing (a healthy one would have likely gotten the game ending Hail Mary, not to mention other plays in the game).
-2016 you have the then highly uncharacteristic missed extra point (after getting the regular season record) by Gostowski, and then deciding to go for it on fourth down I think early in the 4th quarter, when a field goal would have lead to a win (hindsight is 20/20 though). Plus how beat up the team was that year. I think the Panthers would have collapsed against the Pats as well (2 more weeks of rest for the Pats' beat up players that were still playing as well), but that's not as much of a sure thing as beating the Grossman Bears (though i still believe they would have won).

Then again the Pats have had nail biters in all their SB's under Brady and Belichick, so with some small changes they could have potentially been 0-9 or 1-8 the same as the possibility of 9-0 (the Eagles game wasn't as close as the others in terms of one play possibly being the decider, but still a 24-21 end game score; the Panthers game could have gone into OT, so that one was more up for grabs than a potential pure loss at the end). They also had super close playoff games against the Raiders, Titans, Chargers, and Ravens in four of those 9 seasons (all 3 point games I believe). I'll take 5-2 in the SB and 2 conference championship losses in terms of good luck over the bad luck in losing those four games though.

 

[josh345]

This guys a fool haha Rob Parker I mean

 

[n...not crazy]

The rings argument is so dumb - how many rings would he have had he been drafted by Cleveland instead of NE? Like I said he's great and took advantage of his opportunity as well as anyone but to act like he'd drag any franchise to Super Bowls is ridiculous, especially since the guy is an absolute statue in the pocket and has looked extremely average when teams have really gotten pressure on him

One thing Peyton can say is that he probably could've won a ring in Cleveland, because before he got to Indy that's basically the franchise they were

The rings argument is a bit dumb in some sense. Brady put his team ahead with time on the clock a bunch of times in super bowls. Whether or not the D holds has absolutely nothing to do with him. Sometimes they've held, sometimes not. Peyton's second super bowl could have been won with Curtis Painter at QB, handing off to CJ Anderson 55 times.

So. Forget the rings then.

Peyton was 14-13 in the playoffs. He dropped a playoff 1 and done 9 TIMES. That one and done record can and does crucify any argument of him being the GOAT. It's a complete embarrassment.

Tom is 25-9 in the playoffs, still counting. He's 7-4 in conference championship games. Frickin 11 appearances.

This ringless argument still gives a "gimme a break" level of comparison.

Take away super bowl victories, make him 0-7, and Tom would still be 20-14 in the playoffs. Would still be in a comfortable lead for most wins.

 

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