Born to Grapple.

Counterpoint:

I know a toe walker who is an amazing grappler.
 
From what I understand human's are among the best ultra long distance runners in the animal kingdom.
 
Silverblur said:
From what I understand human's are among the best ultra long distance runners in the animal kingdom.
Click to expand...

I've seen the same arguement and regardless, I think unarmed fighting against other preadtors or even primates not so good. Luckily we are a lot smarter.
 
Zankou said:
Would you rather grapple a chimp or try to outrun it?

I think the premise of the article is flawed.
Click to expand...

I would play dead for 20 minutes.

When the chimp lost interest, I'd brag about how I fought something that strong to a draw.
 
I don't understand the argument here - that the foot structure of deer, horses, dogs and cats evolved in a different manner than those of humans automatically equates to human beings being better at grappling than at running.

There's been considerable talk about human beings having the capacity to outrun horses and other prey animals over the course of a day. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/27/health/27well.html
Persistence hunting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As of right now, it's a hypothesis that seems to have some science behind it as well as observation of certain aboriginal tribes (or tribes that have kept some traditions of distance running/hunting alive). It's not proven, but there's some slight rumblings that there could be scientific evidence enough behind it to get it to "theory" status someday. Theories are things like "the theory of evolution" or the "Big Bang theory". Lots of math, science, observations and brain power.

In terms of pure grappling, I think we humans lose to just about every large land mammal on earth and maybe a reptile/bird or two. Apes, big cats, bears, rhinos, big deer, cows, hyenas and so on. Crocodiles and cassowaries might be an even battle. We're not as fast, strong, stable, equipped with lethal instruments or fluid as these animals.

There's little to no science behind "human vs. animal x" because to test this stuff out would require a very large population of possibly insane humans willing to die or be severely wounded, a large captive population of big animals and some very questionable ethics and funding decisions.

However, the common sense test of considering this in a sort of rational way - to me - suggests that we humans are better at running in comparison to the animal kingdom than we are at grappling.

Whether we are closer to the "ideal" or the limits of peak human performance in running or in grappling is unknown to me and probably unstudied.

Right now, I know that Usain Bolt runs a hell of a lot faster than I do and ultra-marathon runners run a hell of a lot farther than I do. Buivasar Saitiev wrestles a hell of a lot better than I do and Rickson Gracie always wins by armbar or RNC.

However, I don't know if Usain Bolt is already the fastest human that will ever walk the earth, that Buivasar is the best human grappler in existence and so on. I don't know how far the human body can be taken and the Olympics/grappling sports/weird specialist sports are still experiencing progress and improvement in terms of human performance.

I don't know this stuff and while I'm somewhat intrigued by considering and finding out these things, FUCK this stupid bullshit that uses no scientific support, no common sense and serves only to support some kind of weird ass "bolstering" of submission grappling as a useful (and perhaps money-making) pursuit.

Fuck...
 
Silverblur said:
From what I understand human's are among the best ultra long distance runners in the animal kingdom.
Click to expand...
You are right. Persistence hunters are not impressed with this thread.

Also I think our proficiency with grappling is more of a side effect our ancestral tree-dwelling than grappling having any sort of evolutionary advantage.

Persistence running hypothesis.

Persistence hunting.

The persistence hunt may well have been the first form of hunting practiced by hominids. It is likely that this method of hunting evolved before humans invented projectile weapons, such as darts, spears, or slings. Since they could not kill their prey from a distance and were not fast enough to catch the animal, one reliable way to kill it would have been to run it down over a long distance.
In this regard, one has to bear in mind that, as hominids adapted to bipedalism they would have lost some speed, becoming less able to catch prey with short, fast charges. They would, however, have gained endurance and become better adapted to persistence hunting. Although many mammals sweat, few have evolved to use sweating for effective thermoregulation, humans and horses being notable exceptions. This coupled with relative hairlessness would have given human hunters an additional advantage by keeping their bodies cool in the midday heat.
Click to expand...

It does seem odd to me in our obesity-ridden, sedentary society that humans are natural born marathon runners.
 
Potential animal kingdom matchups:

Fedor vs Bear
(Fedor gets one knife; bear is black bear)

Jacare vs Alligator
(On land; alligator wears a gi)

Ari Bolden vs Four Lions
(Lions are starving; Ari wears one purple rashguard)
 
On a Semi related note, does anyone else ever wonder what animal fights would look like if they where given intelligence and a few thousand years to develop technique.


I mean fights between trained humans look very little like fights between untrained humans, even those with fighting experience. Yet I have trouble imagining what say a tiger could do differently to be a more effective fighter.
 
Grizzly bear judo and ground/pound would be the single most devastating force in land mammal history.

But wait... we humans are born grapplers and we'd still beat them because we have heels and toes that aren't all fucked up from running. Never mind the four inch claws, 1000 PSI bite force and 700 lbs of shaggy muscle.

We just drill the moves over and over again. Nothing beats kimura trappin' a fuckin' Kodiak shooting in for a single leg.
 
I thought it was a interesting read. He is not talking about bears vs humans or humans vs apes. It's about "grappling ability" between man vs man or ape vs ape or bear vs bear.
 
Author needs to take a class or two on physical anthropology.

seatea said:
Also I think our proficiency with grappling is more of a side effect our ancestral tree-dwelling than grappling having any sort of evolutionary advantage.
Click to expand...

Pretty much this. We are primates, so we have the bodies of one.

I imagine that in the savannah, if we just dicked around all day grappling each other instead of covering massive distances every day to collect food and materials to develop tools we wouldn't have made it too far.

Also we didn't run from predators. Well, we did, but we just had to outrun the other guy. There are plenty of fossils in the record with gnaw marks on the bones. It's more likely we hid in trees when shit went down. Either way, our running (with the exception of persistence hunting, which is pretty fascinating in and of itself) would have been less about running at or running from other animals as it was just necessary for covering massive distances.

It depends on what species of Homo you are talking about anyway. I would assume that we are talking about Homo Sapiens, and even if you include the archaic Sapiens, you're talking about a species that was born into tool use. There is evidence even some Australopithicides had use of some of the most primitive stone lithics.

I imagine we grapple and always have for the same reason you see any mammal grappling. It's fun. My two dogs constantly wrestle each other. For fun.

Also, as far as the bear judo goes, you don't have to worry about their claws and teeth because eye gouging and biting are explicitly illegal in any legitimate sport.
What you really need to worry about are the other great apes. Opposable thumbs are a bitch. You'd better believe a gorilla would have a hell of a nasty collar tie. If you though Palhares was bad for clubbing... :eek:
 
Humans naturally fight with weapons. That's our biggest evolutionary edge.

Our hands and arms aren't made for punching, clawing or grabing horns (although we can do all these things) but are made for throwing stones and handling sharpened sticks. Not to mention our hands ability to sharpen sticks which is a whole other ball game.

Both grappling and punching are inferior forms of fighting for humans even though we got good at it. So from an evolutionary standpoint the development of using weapons is where biology would want to go not making a human who can out wrestle an elephant
 
Balto said:
Potential animal kingdom matchups:

Fedor vs Bear
(Fedor gets one knife; bear is black bear)

Jacare vs Alligator
(On land; alligator wears a gi)

Ari Bolden vs Four Lions
(Lions are starving; Ari wears one purple rashguard)
Click to expand...

Did you not see this Balto?


fedor-vs-bear.jpg
 
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