Rumored Bokator is not muaythai's father

[AndyMaBobs]

Look at the mural of muay thai in relation to Bokator.
This is real historical evidence. And not a fake


mural of muay thai
View attachment 816595

mural of bokator

View attachment 816596

What's your point? Two stone murals depicting fights.

There are several historical reports with muay.

Europeans looked on muay as raíher barbaric and inscrutable. James Low (1836, p. 388), for exaniple, mote,
–The king if present, or íf he is not, some one of his courtiers regulates tbe barbaioxis sport. and rewards the victors. It is not favorable to the formation of a good opinion of Siamese advancemeiit in civilization. to find at such exhibitions the king. his family and his household of both sexes, with the courtiers. and the populace, women and children including.


•Even in Thailand at the time, these type of contests during festivals were common, as shown in James Low’s article, “On Siamese Literature”, which was drafted in 1829, revised in 1836, and finally published in Asiatic Researches vol. XX pt. 11 in 1839:
–“Len Chok Moei (or boxing matches) are common at all great festivals and entertainments. There are no set number of rounds. The king if present — or if he is not, one of his courtiers regulates the barbarous sport and rewards the victors…”

This is all shit we already know that I covered in my first big reply to you. We all know that it was a ring sport in the 1700s (that Thai mural is of Nai Khanom Tom, who lived in the late 1700s. None of this is relevant to whether or not Bokator is the origin or not.

I am here comparing the origin of Bocator with Muay which is the oldest struggle manifestation in Thailand.And not with the muaythai who, as you said, and the 1920s

Muay Thai was formalised as Muay Thai between the 1910s and 1920s, this is a historical fact. Ancient Thai martial art does not mean Muay Thai, any more than ancient Japanese art means Kung Fu.

I hate to be a dick here, but your English isn't coherent enough for us to even be able to understand the point your making, and if we can't understand you, then it stands to reason that you're probably not understanding me.

 

[Snubnoze707]

I am here comparing the origin of Bocator with Muay which is the oldest struggle manifestation in Thailand.And not with the muaythai who, as you said, and the 1920s

Not sure how to reply to this as im not exactly sure what you are saying...

 

[fighthug]

What's your point? Two stone murals depicting fights.




This is all shit we already know that I covered in my first big reply to you. We all know that it was a ring sport in the 1700s (that Thai mural is of Nai Khanom Tom, who lived in the late 1700s. None of this is relevant to whether or not Bokator is the origin or not.



Muay Thai was formalised as Muay Thai between the 1910s and 1920s, this is a historical fact. Ancient Thai martial art does not mean Muay Thai, any more than ancient Japanese art means Kung Fu.

I hate to be a dick here, but your English isn't coherent enough for us to even be able to understand the point your making, and if we can't understand you, then it stands to reason that you're probably not understanding me.

I am posting historical facts that prove the existence of muay, with quotes from foreigners who were in Thailand.
And Bokator? Several foreigners were in Argor and none reported the existence of a fight called Bokator or Labokkatao. Unlike Muay. Uqe has proof of its existence outside Thailand.

And I'm talking about Muay that originated in 1200 and not Muaythai that originated in 1920.

 

[fighthug]

Here is already a proof of the existence of Muay Boran that comes after Muay

This old Muay Boran text, written on traditional Khoi paper, may be the oldest extant example of such a book. It illustrates both defensive and offensive techniques and postures used in old style Thai Boxing. It was compiled at least 170 years ago during the reign of King Rama III. Reprint from Muay Thai: The Most Distinguished Art of Fighting by Panya Kraitus and Dr. Pitisuk Kraitus.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I am posting historical facts that prove the existence of muay, with quotes from foreigners who were in Thailand.
And Bokator? Several foreigners were in Argor and none reported the existence of a fight called Bokator or Labokkatao. Unlike Muay. Uqe has proof of its existence outside Thailand.

And I'm talking about Muay that originated in 1200 and not Muaythai that originated in 1920.

Here is already a proof of the existence of Muay Boran that comes after Muay

This old Muay Boran text, written on traditional Khoi paper, may be the oldest extant example of such a book. It illustrates both defensive and offensive techniques and postures used in old style Thai Boxing. It was compiled at least 170 years ago during the reign of King Rama III. Reprint from Muay Thai: The Most Distinguished Art of Fighting by Panya Kraitus and Dr. Pitisuk Kraitus.

Again. What is your point? King Rama III still puts it all around the 1700s earliest.

There is no proof of Muay originating in 1300s, that Thai arts would have existed then is unquestioned. The idea that it is the Muay Boran of today which has an origin you can ONLY trace back to the late 1800s at best, is laughable. Muay Boran itself is a new term used by the Thai gov to group the arts of Lopburi, Khorat and Chaiya, which are themselves ring sports. Muay Boran is not the name of any Thai martial art in any traditional sense.

I don't see why you're trying to prove that old Thai arts exist, that's not in question. You're bringing up shit that isn't in question, and has nothing to do with whether or not Bokator is the parent art of Muay Thai, or whether there is some conspiracy to make people believe it is such a thing.

 

[fighthug]

Again. What is your point? King Rama III still puts it all around the 1700s earliest.

There is no proof of Muay originating in 1300s, that Thai arts would have existed then is unquestioned. The idea that it is the Muay Boran of today which has an origin you can ONLY trace back to the late 1800s at best, is laughable. Muay Boran itself is a new term used by the Thai gov to group the arts of Lopburi, Khorat and Chaiya, which are themselves ring sports. Muay Boran is not the name of any Thai martial art in any traditional sense.

I don't see why you're trying to prove that old Thai arts exist, that's not in question. You're bringing up shit that isn't in question, and has nothing to do with whether or not Bokator is the parent art of Muay Thai, or whether there is some conspiracy to make people believe it is such a thing.

First, let's maintain respect. The information I am posting and proves the origin of Muay that comes before Muay Boran. And showing proof of Muay's existence, then Muay boran and then Muay Thai. While Bokator has no proof of its existence.

In order to survive in times of peace, Pahuyuth Free-Warriors held improvisational fights with punches, kicks, elbows and knees from about 900 AD. This resulted in a new fighting method called MUAI, from which the Thai national sport Muay Thai (Thaiboxing) and other Southeast Asian fighting styles (e.g. Bokator, Pradal Serey, Lethwei, Muay Lao, etc.) were derived.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

First, let's maintain respect. The information I am posting and proves the origin of Muay that comes before Muay Boran. And showing proof of Muay's existence, then Muay boran and then Muay Thai. While Bokator has no proof of its existence.

First, there isn't disrespect, it is not disrespect for me to criticise your point. Any other perceived disrespect is on your end.

Secondly, you are not understanding that a stone carving from the 1200s does not mean muay, anymore than a carving of a samurai means karate. It means that in the 1200s they had a martial art of some kind, something true of every culture on the planet. There is as much proof of Bokator as there is of Ancient Muay Boran, that being that we know for an absolute fact that the cultures had their own martial arts, as you show in the Cambodian and Thai stone murals.

Here's another Cambodian mural depicting a martial artist. If we're using your logic, we can claim this is Bokator with as much certainty as we can claim that that Thai mural depicted Muay.

Your claim though, was that there is a campaign of Bokator practitioners lying and claiming that it's the origin of Muay Thai. That's simply not true. They're not pahuyuth lol. It's simply the fact that it's a poorly recorded culture with out proper record.

We can squint at statues all day, it still won't change the fact that we have no idea where Muay Thai as an art truly came from. The most likely situation is as @Snubnoze707 described - the entire region had a general approach to fighting that ultimately merged into one style we see throughout South East Asia, and Muay Thai the sport was further developed over the 20th Century.

 

[fighthug]

First, there isn't disrespect, it is not disrespect for me to criticise your point. Any other perceived disrespect is on your end.

Secondly, you are not understanding that a stone carving from the 1200s does not mean muay, anymore than a carving of a samurai means karate. It means that in the 1200s they had a martial art of some kind, something true of every culture on the planet. There is as much proof of Bokator as there is of Ancient Muay Boran, that being that we know for an absolute fact that the cultures had their own martial arts, as you show in the Cambodian and Thai stone murals.

Here's another Cambodian mural depicting a martial artist. If we're using your logic, we can claim this is Bokator with as much certainty as we can claim that that Thai mural depicted Muay.

Your claim though, was that there is a campaign of Bokator practitioners lying and claiming that it's the origin of Muay Thai. That's simply not true. They're not pahuyuth lol. It's simply the fact that it's a poorly recorded culture with out proper record.

We can squint at statues all day, it still won't change the fact that we have no idea where Muay Thai as an art truly came from. The most likely situation is as @Snubnoze707 described - the entire region had a general approach to fighting that ultimately merged into one style we see throughout South East Asia, and Muay Thai the sport was further developed over the 20th Century.

In Cambodia there was no kicking fight. At the time of the Khmer empire there was only Khmer Boxing and Westler.

This figure uses the Bokator forced to fight actually refers to a person dancing

 

[AndyMaBobs]

In Cambodia there was no kicking fight. At the time of the Khmer empire there was only Khmer Boxing and Westler.

This figure uses the Bokator forced to fight actually refers to a person dancing

View attachment 817277

You don't know if there was no kick fighting, and it's intellectually dishonest to say that you do.

While I agree that the raised knee does resemble dancing, you can also argue the hand position implies a fighting stance and the instrument behind him as fight music, which is a core aspect of ring sports in South East Asia.

Like I say, we can squint at statues all day long, it will not bring us any closer to the answer, and we will need more acheological findings before we can know anymore.

 

[fighthug]

You don't know if there was no kick fighting, and it's intellectually dishonest to say that you do.

While I agree that the raised knee does resemble dancing, you can also argue the hand position implies a fighting stance and the instrument behind him as fight music, which is a core aspect of ring sports in South East Asia.

Like I say, we can squint at statues all day long, it will not bring us any closer to the answer, and we will need more acheological findings before we can know anymore.

It is not dishonest. There are reports of Chinese foreigners who report the existence of fighting with punch and westles similar to Japanese Sumo. However, without the existence of a kick fight. A flimaging team went to Cambodia and only found traditional Boxing Khem and not Bokator.

Who is saying that this is dance is not me are researchers of the empire Khem
Search for you if you have any questions

 

[Snubnoze707]

It is not dishonest. There are reports of Chinese foreigners who report the existence of fighting with punch and westles similar to Japanese Sumo. However, without the existence of a kick fight. A flimaging team went to Cambodia and only found traditional Boxing Khem and not Bokator.

Who is saying that this is dance is not me are researchers of the empire Khem
Search for you if you have any questions

You would have to take a massive leap of logic to surmise that they weren't kicking. Even Medieval German Longsword combat incorporated kicks to a degree. That probably is a dance, but a dance that is emulating fighting. That is what we still have today in the sport of Muay Thai with the Ram Muay. Again, these people have been fighting with each other in that region for 1,000 years with very similar cultures. To act like Siam was the exception that used kicks is a stretch. When it comes to evidence you can't ignore the impact of the Khmer Rouge, but really there is no way to verify specifically where the lineage originates from. We do know that the lineage started within the region of SEA however, which overtime had boarders that fluctuated and kingdoms ruled and fell.

What we know as the sport of Muay Thai today unquestionably developed in the 20th century however. You can even see the evolution as their is video footage going back 100 years.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

It is not dishonest. There are reports of Chinese foreigners who report the existence of fighting with punch and westles similar to Japanese Sumo. However, without the existence of a kick fight. A flimaging team went to Cambodia and only found traditional Boxing Khem and not Bokator.

Who is saying that this is dance is not me are researchers of the empire Khem
Search for you if you have any questions

I didn't say it wasn't a dance, I am saying that through looking at that specific picture that I sent you, I could see it being part of a fight, although I recognise the similarities with the dancing pictures. You don't seem to want to meet me even a fraction of the way here to talk about it.

You would have to take a massive leap of logic to surmise that they weren't kicking. Even Medieval German Longsword combat incorporated kicks to a degree. That probably is a dance, but a dance that is emulating fighting. That is what we still have today in the sport of Muay Thai with the Ram Muay. Again, these people have been fighting with each other in that region for 1,000 years with very similar cultures. To act like Siam was the exception that used kicks is a stretch. When it comes to evidence you can't ignore the impact of the Khmer Rouge, but really there is no way to verify specifically where the lineage originates from. We do know that the lineage started within the region of SEA however, which overtime had boarders that fluctuated and kingdoms ruled and fell.

What we know as the sport of Muay Thai today unquestionably developed in the 20th century however. You can even see the evolution as their is video footage going back 100 years.

This. A thousand times this.

 

[fighthug]

You would have to take a massive leap of logic to surmise that they weren't kicking. Even Medieval German Longsword combat incorporated kicks to a degree. That probably is a dance, but a dance that is emulating fighting. That is what we still have today in the sport of Muay Thai with the Ram Muay. Again, these people have been fighting with each other in that region for 1,000 years with very similar cultures. To act like Siam was the exception that used kicks is a stretch. When it comes to evidence you can't ignore the impact of the Khmer Rouge, but really there is no way to verify specifically where the lineage originates from. We do know that the lineage started within the region of SEA however, which overtime had boarders that fluctuated and kingdoms ruled and fell.

What we know as the sport of Muay Thai today unquestionably developed in the 20th century however. You can even see the evolution as their is video footage going back 100 years.

In Cambodia there was only one traditional Khmer boxing and Wrestling. And in traditional Khmer boxing there was no kick.

In Cambodia there was only one traditional Khmer boxing and Wrestling. And in traditional Khmer boxing there was no kick.

British Pathe visited Thailand, Cambodia in Burmese in 1945. In Thailand he found Muay Boran, in Burmese Lethwei, but in Cambodia he did not find Bokator. Only traditional Khmer boxing


There is video of this on the internet

 

[fighthug]

I didn't say it wasn't a dance, I am saying that through looking at that specific picture that I sent you, I could see it being part of a fight, although I recognise the similarities with the dancing pictures. You don't seem to want to meet me even a fraction of the way here to talk about it.



This. A thousand times this.

You are not interpreting this as a fight. Not even at Cambodia University is this interpreted like that.
When it is a fight they are clearly shown on the murals. The Khmer people were excellent illustrators.
When it is a fight they are clearly shown on the murals. The Khmer people were excellent illustrators. And just see the images of Khmer traditional wrestling. You don't have to guess what they are fighting for. And just look at stone and that's a fight.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

You are not interpreting this as a fight.

Ah, I see, you are some sort of mind reader now.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

In Cambodia there was only one traditional Khmer boxing and Wrestling. And in traditional Khmer boxing there was no kick.

In Cambodia there was only one traditional Khmer boxing and Wrestling. And in traditional Khmer boxing there was no kick.

British Pathe visited Thailand, Cambodia in Burmese in 1945. In Thailand he found Muay Boran, in Burmese Lethwei, but in Cambodia he did not find Bokator. Only traditional Khmer boxing


There is video of this on the internet

As in Pradal Seray?

If so, does this not imply that the martial art may have... come from somewhere... historical

 

[Sakuraba7]

First point - I dont see the connection. Second point - if pova means people thats why I said the region of Thailand. Im just talking about geography.

Thai as a people and culture were never the dominant force in SEA. It was Austronesian people in the coastlines and islands, and Chinese influence in the border regions to the north.

For example: Central and Southern Vietnam was the Kingdom of Champa. The Cham were and are an Austronesian people. Philippines and native Taiwanese are also Austronesian. The natives of Southern Thailand are Malay people.

For the Austronesians, Silat and related martial arts were what they practiced.

The Khmer were another influential group in the SEA mainland.

 

[Kim Jong Un]

Thai as a people and culture were never the dominant force in SEA. It was Austronesian people in the coastlines and islands, and Chinese influence in the border regions to the north.

For example: Central and Southern Vietnam was the Kingdom of Champa. The Cham were and are an Austronesian people. Philippines and native Taiwanese are also Austronesian. The natives of Southern Thailand are Malay people.

For the Austronesians, Silat and related martial arts were what they practiced.

The Khmer were another influential group in the SEA mainland.

Again I dont see the connection. I already clarified I wasnt talking about ethnic groups. With all due respect it seems like some people are just intent at passionately monologuing into cyberspace when it comes to these topics.

 

[Sakuraba7]

Again I dont see the connection. I already clarified I wasnt talking about ethnic groups. With all due respect it seems like some people are just intent at passionately monologuing into cyberspace when it comes to these topics.

You're not wrong but even if it's a side track somebody might find it interesting. It adds to the contextual history of the region you're talking about. Even a namedrop could lead someone into a rabbit hole to indulge their own curiosity.

 

[fighthug]

In 1945 a British Pathe team visited Thailand there, he found Muaythai, then the British Pathe team visited Myanmar and found Lethwei, however when he visited Cambodia he did not find Bokator. It is traditional Khmer Boxing that is not Bokator.


Siamese Boxing 1930







Lethwei Burmese Boxing 1930







Khmer Boxing 1930