Rumored Bokator is not muaythai's father

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Because of its visual similarity, bokator is often wrongly described as a variant of modern kickboxing and muaythai .

At the time of the Pol Pot regime (1975–1979) those who practiced traditional arts were either systematically exterminated by the Khmer Rouge, fled as refugees or stopped teaching and hid.
As it is written everything was wiped out by the Khmer Rouge army. Based on what they say that Bokator and Muaythai's father



San Kim Sean was because of Hapkido only from 1990 onwards that he invented this story of Bokate so far no one had heard of it.

San Kim Sean hapkido .jpg

San Kim Sean was Hapkido's teacher
 
Didn't realize anyone thought it was...

At one stage I thought it might have been when I was researching into it, but after talking with the Brooklyn Monk about it I came to the conclusion that there just isn't enough recorded history to say anything more of it.
 
In my opinion the geographic distribution and the antiquity of the tradition suggests the origin of SEA arts as a substrate art from peoples who lived in what is modern day Thailand.
 
In my opinion the geographic distribution and the antiquity of the tradition suggests the origin of SEA arts as a substrate art from peoples who lived in what is modern day Thailand.
What is the logic of this. Just because a people dominated that region does not suggest that it originated the entire culture of that people. And the Thai pova comes from China
 
At one stage I thought it might have been when I was researching into it, but after talking with the Brooklyn Monk about it I came to the conclusion that there just isn't enough recorded history to say anything more of it.
This is yet another lie from the people of Cambodia. There was a mural, painting about fighting and none was related to Bokator.
In 1945 they made a video and there would be no Bokator only the Traditional Boxing Khem
 
It just looks like you're going on a poorly worded, disconnected ramble. Who is trying to lie about what, and based on what evidence? Your initial post doesn't even make coherent sense as to what you are talking about.
 
But what does Maury say?
maury-not-the-father-gif-dance.gif
 
What is the logic of this. Just because a people dominated that region does not suggest that it originated the entire culture of that people. And the Thai pova comes from China
First point - I dont see the connection. Second point - if pova means people thats why I said the region of Thailand. Im just talking about geography.
 
main-qimg-01a57fdb83733a775811f332c8ae7707.jpg
It just looks like you're going on a poorly worded, disconnected ramble. Who is trying to lie about what, and based on what evidence? Your initial post doesn't even make coherent sense as to what you are talking about.
https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/arti...jyn7DOi7wyK_Xx52v7PlinP19GPB4P8458-fTZRpCRp-s

I'm referring to the campaign that Bokator practitioners have been doing to talk that Bokator originated the muaythai

Announcement in a French newspaper saying that Bokator is the muaythai's father
bokato.png

main-qimg-e89fc30671ddd301fdf1ff534b5c01c5.jpg

ggfdg.png
 
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Before master San Kim Sean returned from the US to Cambodia in around 2001, the name Boxkator was virtually unknown in the country. The "term" existed in a couple of texts on the history & culture of the Khmers - but only as one of a list of weaponry programmes without any detail.
 
https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/arti...jyn7DOi7wyK_Xx52v7PlinP19GPB4P8458-fTZRpCRp-s

I'm referring to the campaign that Bokator practitioners have been doing to talk that Bokator originated the muaythai

You are being hyperbolic. There is no campaign to suggest fool people that bokator is the originator of Muay Thai, the article (which doesn't even directly quote him on Muay Thai) says:

He says that while regional sports such as Muay Thai (Thai boxing) are famous throughout the world, their origins come from bokator. This is because the Khmer empire covered vast swathes of Southeast Asia, including large parts of Thailand, during its peak in the 12th and 13th centuries. “Bokator is the original,” he says with pride.

Before master San Kim Sean returned from the US to Cambodia in around 2001, the name Boxkator was virtually unknown in the country. The "term" existed in a couple of texts on the history & culture of the Khmers - but only as one of a list of weaponry programmes without any detail.

What texts are you saying it was cited in? You likely won't get any Cambodian texts, as the majority of the country was illiterate - and so much history was intentionally destroyed by the khmer rogue. Including killing people with education in both University/School and martial arts.


On the origin of Muay Thai:

The only actual answer to this is we do not know what the 'father' of Muay Thai is. The Thai government have been inventing tradition and mythology surrounding older Thai martial arts and the 'boran' styles (Boran being actually a relatively new term) are also largely reconstructions. There do appear to be some surviving lineages of original Muay Khorat, Lopburi and Chaiya but these are rare. We also don't have much reason to believe that the stone engravings of martial artists fighting are necessarily what we would call muay today, or even what we'd have called muay 200 years ago.

We know that Muay existed as an entertainment sport from at least the 1700s, and we know the term 'Muay Thai' came from the Suan Kulap college to differentiate it from western boxing.

Source:
Muay Thai: Inventing Tradition for a National Symbol (Sojourn: Journal of Social Issues in Southeast Asia - Vol. 29, No. 3 (November 2014), pp. 509-553)


So could Bokator be Muay Thai's father? The only real answer is we don't know, and we likely never will know. The martial arts in South East Asia, Tomoi, Muay Thai, Pradal Serey, Muay Laos, Lethwei are all so similar that we can pretty much consider them to be the same martial art. Lethwei is a bit of an outlier in that headbutts are still allowed in competition - but even then. Which country was first to spread this martial art around all of South East Asia? Who knows.

I am inclined to say Bokator is not the progenitor of Muay Thai, purely because there isn't enough evidence to suggest that it is true. Does this mean there is some conspiracy to promote Bokator as the father of Muay Thai? No. At least not based on the evidence that you have provided.
 
You are being hyperbolic. There is no campaign to suggest fool people that bokator is the originator of Muay Thai, the article (which doesn't even directly quote him on Muay Thai) says:





What texts are you saying it was cited in? You likely won't get any Cambodian texts, as the majority of the country was illiterate - and so much history was intentionally destroyed by the khmer rogue. Including killing people with education in both University/School and martial arts.


On the origin of Muay Thai:

The only actual answer to this is we do not know what the 'father' of Muay Thai is. The Thai government have been inventing tradition and mythology surrounding older Thai martial arts and the 'boran' styles (Boran being actually a relatively new term) are also largely reconstructions. There do appear to be some surviving lineages of original Muay Khorat, Lopburi and Chaiya but these are rare. We also don't have much reason to believe that the stone engravings of martial artists fighting are necessarily what we would call muay today, or even what we'd have called muay 200 years ago.

We know that Muay existed as an entertainment sport from at least the 1700s, and we know the term 'Muay Thai' came from the Suan Kulap college to differentiate it from western boxing.

Source:
Muay Thai: Inventing Tradition for a National Symbol (Sojourn: Journal of Social Issues in Southeast Asia - Vol. 29, No. 3 (November 2014), pp. 509-553)


So could Bokator be Muay Thai's father? The only real answer is we don't know, and we likely never will know. The martial arts in South East Asia, Tomoi, Muay Thai, Pradal Serey, Muay Laos, Lethwei are all so similar that we can pretty much consider them to be the same martial art. Lethwei is a bit of an outlier in that headbutts are still allowed in competition - but even then. Which country was first to spread this martial art around all of South East Asia? Who knows.

I am inclined to say Bokator is not the progenitor of Muay Thai, purely because there isn't enough evidence to suggest that it is true. Does this mean there is some conspiracy to promote Bokator as the father of Muay Thai? No. At least not based on the evidence that you have provided.

First Bokator started to be known from this argument. According to the text above that even I read this talking about Muay Thai. For the Muayboran, which is actually Muay, is recorded in the stone engraved by King Ramkhamhaeng already referred to Muay in 1200. And Peter Vail's text offers little historical source and only speculation.

ram-khamhaeng-inscription-stone2-1024x768.jpg
 
First Bokator started to be known from this argument. According to the text above that even I read this talking about Muay Thai. For the Muayboran, which is actually Muay, is recorded in the stone engraved by King Ramkhamhaeng already referred to Muay in 1200. And Peter Vail's text offers little historical source and only speculation.

ram-khamhaeng-inscription-stone2-1024x768.jpg

Erm... I mean, no? You haven't added anything here other than a picture of a stone mural with no context. Vail isn't speculating, it's a heavily sourced paper on how the Thai gov. invent tradition.

As a side note, the likelihood that the old martial arts that i mentioned being referenced from engraving, being remotely what we'd call today boran is slim to none

It's hard to talk with you because you don't clearly have a point - nevermind a point that's coherant
 
Muay Thai as we know it really developed through the 20th century in Thailand. I'm sure all of these SEA countries shared similar fighting tactics as they were constantly fighting each other in war going back nearly 1,000 years. The sport of Muay Thai is a different story though, and it clearly came from Thailand.
 
Erm... I mean, no? You haven't added anything here other than a picture of a stone mural with no context. Vail isn't speculating, it's a heavily sourced paper on how the Thai gov. invent tradition.

As a side note, the likelihood that the old martial arts that i mentioned being referenced from engraving, being remotely what we'd call today boran is slim to none
The stone engraved by King Ramkhamhaeng is where this is the first reference to the Muay fight that comes before the Muayboran and Muaythai.
It's hard to talk with you because you don't clearly have a point - nevermind a point that's coherant
Look at the mural of muay thai in relation to Bokator.
This is real historical evidence. And not a fake


mural of muay thai
Nai Khanom Tom in Ayutthaya.png

mural of bokator

440px-BanteayChmarRahu.jpg
 
Muay Thai as we know it really developed through the 20th century in Thailand. I'm sure all of these SEA countries shared similar fighting tactics as they were constantly fighting each other in war going back nearly 1,000 years. The sport of Muay Thai is a different story though, and it clearly came from Thailand.
I am here comparing the origin of Bocator with Muay which is the oldest struggle manifestation in Thailand.And not with the muaythai who, as you said, and the 1920s
 
There are several historical reports with muay.

Europeans looked on muay as raíher barbaric and inscrutable. James Low (1836, p. 388), for exaniple, mote,
–The king if present, or íf he is not, some one of his courtiers regulates tbe barbaioxis sport. and rewards the victors. It is not favorable to the formation of a good opinion of Siamese advancemeiit in civilization. to find at such exhibitions the king. his family and his household of both sexes, with the courtiers. and the populace, women and children including.


•Even in Thailand at the time, these type of contests during festivals were common, as shown in James Low’s article, “On Siamese Literature”, which was drafted in 1829, revised in 1836, and finally published in Asiatic Researches vol. XX pt. 11 in 1839:
–“Len Chok Moei (or boxing matches) are common at all great festivals and entertainments. There are no set number of rounds. The king if present — or if he is not, one of his courtiers regulates the barbarous sport and rewards the victors…”
 
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