Bodybuilding Workouts Similair to PL Ones

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by KOU In3, Dec 20, 2005.

  1. KOU In3

    KOU In3 Orange Belt

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    After seeing some posts in another thread I thought I'd start this one to avoid throwing that thread off on a tangent. Basicly a few people have commented that a good bodybuilding routine is fairly close (no not identical but close in a lot of the critical elements) to a PL style workout.

    Maybe we'll be able to have an actual discussion instead of the usual flame war over BBers being ghey and vain.

    I suppose if I had to define myself as a lifter it would be "a hobbiest (not even an amateur) NATURAL bodybuilder". By this I mean that I don't think I'd ever possess the physique or desire to don posing trunks and hit the stage. But I would consider myself something of a token bodybuilder. My point is that on Sherdog I'd call myself a bodybuilder in here for discussion purposes but in no way claim to have built a physique where people would think 'now that's a bodybuilder'.

    Ok, on to my point of the thread. I'll post my routine below. It's along the lines of a classic bodybuilding split. Note that it's pretty much a standard BBing routine. But contrary to popular belief it's not all about high reps, isolation moves, and getting a pump.

    Mon: Chest Day
    Incline Bench (barbell)
    Flat Bench (barbell)
    Weighted Dips
    Finish with incline dumbell flies and a cable flies

    Tues (BJJ and open roll then): Arms and abs
    Barbell curls
    Dumbell hammer curls
    Machine preachers
    Skull crushers
    Two handed dumbell extensions (both hands on the bell lower to behind head and raise up)
    Rope press-downs
    Abs: Hanging leg raises, weighted declines with a twist, V-ups

    Wed:
    Off

    Thurs: Back and Cardio
    Deadlifts
    Barbell Rows
    Weighted Chins
    Nautilus Xplode one handed pull downs
    Cable rows
    Cardio- Jump-rope and/or intervals on a stepmill (NOT stairmaster)

    Fri: Legs
    Front Squats or Back Squats
    Leg Press
    Hack Squats
    Leg Extension
    Hamstring Curl
    Standing calf raise, seated calf raise

    Sat (BJJ and open roll then): Shoulders
    Military Press
    Dumbell Press
    Upright rows
    Barbell Shrugs
    Dumbell Flies

    Sun:
    Off


    Now my point is this. You can point to the discrepancies but look at the similarities. On almost every given day (except arms) you have 3 compound movements. You have 'the big three' each on their own day. Yes there's some isolation to finish things off... after the compound movements are done. The big isolation days are following several hours of grappling and are more 'finishing off' the muscle on a heavy grappling day.

    My point is not a 'look at my spiffy routine'. But rather to point out that despite all the hate for a bodybuilding style of workout, any decent bodybuilding workout is relatively close to a big three, powerlfiting, or other advocated workouts. I think a lot of the hating on real bodybuilding workouts come from people who aren't familiar with how a 'real' bodybuilder lifts.

    Ok, I've had my say. Bring on the flames.
     
  2. CarnalSalvation

    CarnalSalvation Trying to make a Milankey

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    This may surprise you, but I tend to agree, at least to an extent.

    When people PM or IM me asking to gain weight, I put them on what is at the core a PL routine, with some added volume and extra lifts for parts powerlifters don't train much.

    All you have to do is look at Big Ron to know that being strong helps you get huge.

    Just a side note, one of the stronger guys in my gym is actually a masters bodybuilder. At around 200lbs he did 455X3 on the bench, they were sloppy reps but that was still a lot of weight for a 200lb 53 year old to push. He has pulled 585 as well. His best BB credential is he is a two time winner of the IFBB Southern States in Florida for his class, and was invited to nationals both times but hasn't gone. Mostly because we're corrupting him with dirty, dirty powerlifting.
     
  3. CarnalSalvation

    CarnalSalvation Trying to make a Milankey

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    Just to add to that though, I think you've gone a tad overboard on the idea of adding extra volume and bber exercises.
     
  4. gauntman

    gauntman Orange Belt

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    body building is gay.

    okay, now that i've got that out of the way, you're right, most of your days do have a few big compound movements. but without wanting to devote a lot of time to studying your routine,and without claiming to be an expert on anything, there are a few obvious differences.

    many powerlifting splits do not call for five days of lifting. and i'm sorry, but a day devoted to bicep curls and variations on tricep work doesn't really seem like much of day of big, compound movements.

    plus, without a weight/rep scheme, it's kinda hard to evaluate. i bet this is all 4x10, isn't it?
     
  5. KOU In3

    KOU In3 Orange Belt

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    Actually I'm a bit suprised. When I saw you were online at this hour I expected a hailstorm response. I pretty much posted and then noticed. "Oh sh!t and Carnal's the only one online... Here we go" lol :D

    As to the volume, yeah I cut my teeth on the Flex routines and took a lot of convincing that a routine didn't have to have 20 working sets to produce results. So 15 working sets still seems relatively low volume to me.

    But to avoid derailing it to my personal routine I'd point that the focus on most decent bodybuilding routines still centers around big, heavy (relative to the lifter), compound movements. You won't find many bodybuilders skipping deadlifts, squats, or presses these days from what I've seen.

    Granted there will always be some teen lifter who claims to be a bodybuilder with some circuit training with the Hammer Strength machines but I don't think any informed BBer would endorse that type of training.

    To an extent I think there's a pretty big overlap between bodybuilders, strongmen, and powerlifters in their training.
     
  6. Madmick

    Madmick Cerebrage Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    This still isn't a routine I'd use.
     
  7. Urban

    Urban Savage Mystic

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    I was going to flip out and act all high and mighty but my whole rant whittled down to this: 80% of your results will come from 20% of your actions. If you choose to spend an ridiculous amount of time working on the remaining 20% of your results, it's time wasted. As such, try to simplify your routine down to those exercises which yeild the most. focus on them, and notice how much you improve without all the fluff. It's unneccessary and distracting. Notice how your deadlift day is right before your squat day? ever consider that a potential problem? maybe not. Maybe you were focusing on how many different arm exercises you could squeeze in on tuesday. I dunno, the routine looks too cluttered, and has too much extra crap in it for my tastes. the other thread is about somebody who made good gains on a strength routine, why not start there?
     
  8. CarnalSalvation

    CarnalSalvation Trying to make a Milankey

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    Me neither man, but I agree with the basic idea behind what he's saying, and if that's what gets his rocks off then whatever. How about something like this:

    Day One:
    Squats 3-4X3-5
    Narrow Stance Full Squats 3-4X6-10
    Barbell Curls 4X6-8
    1-2 gay leg machine exercises you want to do

    Day Two:
    Flat Bench Press 3-4X3-5
    Seated DB Overheads 3-4X6-12
    Skullcrushers 3-4X6-8
    Plate Raises 3X8-12
    Lateral Raises 2-3X8-12
    Rotators/rear delts

    Day Three:
    Deadlifts 1-3X1-5
    Romanian Deadlifts 3-4X5-8
    BB Rows 4-5X5-8
    Low Cable Row 4X8-10
    Hyperextensions 3Xmax reps
    Hammer Curls 3X8-15

    Day Four:
    Incline Bench Press 3-4X6-8
    Narrow Grip Three Board Press 4-5X3
    Flat DB Press 3-4X5-10
    Tricep Pushdowns 10X10
    Incline Fly
     
  9. CarnalSalvation

    CarnalSalvation Trying to make a Milankey

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    It's about...10X more macho....your routine was like the Indian in the village people, mine is like the cop. In terms of speedo machismo.
     
  10. KOU In3

    KOU In3 Orange Belt

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    I think that might be a bit of an overstatement. It's pretty much only an hour of lifting 5 days a week. You're claiming that I could be making the same progress with 12 minutes of gym time 5 days a week?

    I should have clarified there but didn't want to get too bogged down in the details of my personal routine. I tend to switch up the 'big three' days a bit. Last week I squatted on Mon and deadlifted on Thurs for instance.

    Overall though the point I'm trying to make isn't that this is the be all, end all routine, or that I think anyone should switch to it. I'm merely trying to point out that the BBer routine isn't that diiferent at its core than the more fashionable routines on Sherdog.

    I fully understand that the point of this forum is not to build bigger muscles but rather to build strength. But I think that it's popular to automaticly hate on anything labeled BBing routine here when they're closer than a lot of posters realize.


    Note: I'm not trying to convert anyone. Merely making the point that there are more similarities than differences is all.
     
  11. KOU In3

    KOU In3 Orange Belt

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    Carnal- I think you've touched on one of the big differences in theory between the two with your posted routine though. Funny, it's a similair difference that I get into when comparing routines with a buddy of mine that competes in Strongman events.

    From a bodybuilding perspective I've always been a fan of basicly crushing a muscle group in any given workout and then letting it recover for a week. The strongman routine, like the one you posted seems to a little tricep work for instance but on multiple different days. Or one movement of shoulder work but on two different days.

    I definately think this represents a distinct departure between the two styles.
     
  12. Urban

    Urban Savage Mystic

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    No, I'm claiming you could whittle your routine down to 1/5th of the exercises you listed and if you spent time on them instead of the supplemental stuff you could probably do fine. But a routine like the one listed shows a whole lotta exercises that seem to be in place for no other reason than having a whole bunch of exercises (I'm personally appalled by the presence of 3 types of curls and three types of tricep extensions in one day, but of course anyone who's been here for 10 minutes would know that I find that repulsive. back to my point...).

    Dan john has a routine called the one lift a day program. and if you attack it right it should yield good results. I think a lot of people with too-much-crammed-into-a-routine-itis could benefit from it, bodybuilders included. Pick some core exercises, and show them some TLC and progress. You'd be suprised how little you actually need to get bigger or stronger. Give it 6-8 weeks, and supplement as you see fit afterwards. Another option of course is how you divide up your time. if you spend 80% of your time on 20% of your exercises (so long as they're the right ones) you should be fine. The remaining 12 minutes is plenty of time to get in 7 more sets of 8-12 reps split between several exercises. And if you work that BBing voodoo you can superset and get even more fluff in.

    And I want to appologize if I came off hostile, that was not my intent.
     
  13. Mark Limbaga

    Mark Limbaga Amateur Fighter

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    Are you building muscle now or on a fat loss program? I don't think you'll need that much exercises when building muscle.
     
  14. Madmick

    Madmick Cerebrage Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Also, 9/10 "bodybuilder" routines I see (either on paper or being performed in a gym) do not look at all like this.
     
  15. thecreator

    thecreator Blue Belt

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    There are 2 kinds of bodybuilders;

    1. They try to get every muscle as strong as possible, and by doing so their muscles get bigger. These kinds of bodybuilders can make a good transition to other sports, e.g. Mariusz Pudzianowski, Svend Karlsen.
    Mark Coleman isn't a bodybuilder, but I assume that all his muscles are strong, and he definately has the body of a bodybuilder.

    2. They are obsessed with getting their muscles as big as possible (Most bodybuilders fall within this group). I consider them to have a mental disorder.
     
  16. krellik

    krellik Gimli son of Cisco

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    The bigest problem with bodybuilding isnt its methods but its goals.

    Bodybuilding fits much better together with powerlifting then it does with fighting. When I look at your schedule I just think "wooh dude, thats a lot of time wasted that you could have grappled on instead." Now I respect if that isnt your goal, but still that should be the reason why bodybuilding shouldnt flourish in this forum since it is suposed to be dedicated to strength and power in an mma perspective. Or atleast thats how I see it..;)
     
  17. Noskill

    Noskill Created Monkey

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    I counted the number of exercises I wouldn't do in your routine. 13. You know, that's quite a bit. I'm with Urban here, IMO you spend way too much time on crap exercises, An arm day? Come on, you already have chins and dips in there, just do more of them.

    Two main things I don't like with bodybuilding:

    1) The fucked up value hierarchy when it comes to the importance of given muscle groups. You, for example, give way too much attention to arms.

    2) The focus is on the muscle, not the lift. IMO nobody should ever ask how to get a bigger chest, they should just ask how to bench more. I got a friend who lifts witha bodybuilding mentality and he always wonders why he has a smaller chest than me. I always say look at the numbers but he focuses on the muscles. Moreover, thinking about lifts prevents you from switching all the time to new lifts that would blast your arms, sizzle your chest or whatnot.

    BUT, effective (EFFECTIVE!) bodybuilding looks a lot like effective lifting. Granted. However, the simple fact that it looks like it does not change the fact that it is inferior to it IMO.
     
  18. Noskill

    Noskill Created Monkey

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    I second that. Bodybuilding is a microcosm revolving around itself. Insofar as bodybuilding is bodybuilding, it won't help you at achieving anything else than getting bigger muscles. Lifting weights in general will help all sports and many everyday activities etc...

    Of course you will say that you will get stronger while bodybuilding, but for bodybuilding that is AN ACCIDENT.
     
  19. KOU In3

    KOU In3 Orange Belt

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    Actually, I completely agree with you here. My point is definately not to push BBing to the forum. But rather to point out that in a lot of ways there are more similairities than differences.

    There are some really good anti-bodybuilding points in this thread too. In all honesty I think Krellik makes a great point with this statement.

    Comments like some of these make a lot of sense to me on this forum. What I do disagree with though is when it devolves into the "Bodybuilding... bad" bandwagon with posters positive that it's all supersets, isolation, machines, and 'the pump'.

    Most of the more thought out posts on this thread make some decent points in noting where the two depart though rather than simply demonizing it with misnomers and I can respect that a lot more.

    I think overall my point is that you can arrive at an identical opinion but if you get there using what is in my opinion faulty logic, I'm bound to dispute your premise. Reach the same conclusion with solid logic and I'm largely on board.
     
  20. LCDforMe

    LCDforMe Purple Belt

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    This thread has some good arguements.

    Carnal seems to have a pretty good one outlined for you if you were interested in changing it up a bit. I will say that I'm not too disapointed in how yours looks though, considering you said it was going to be a bodybuilder's routine.
     

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