Big Nog and Fedor's BJJ is so overrated.

WTF? Nog beat Werdum. But that's not how it works. Or are you seriously debating Nog>Werdum>Fedor>Nog>Werdum... ad infinitum?

Hey, it works for Ali > Foreman > Frazier > Ali

Sometimes styles makes fights (and also when in someone's career the fight happens).

But I'm thinking the OP would change his mind about how good Nog's BJJ is if the OP had to roll with Nog.
 
Fedors belly down armbar is the bees knees. That shit is the definition of beauty. Who is slicker and faster than Fedor off his back at HW? The guy is not even a BJJ guy and you got him on this thread so he must've done something right in the BJJ world. Fedors main game was ground and pound, he wasn't ever really looking for subs..
 
whats funny to me is how pathetic little guys who never trained MMA a day in their pathetic lives come to a karate forum shitting on real fighters and absolute legends of the sport and who were clearly ahead of their time. And in the name of getting atention .... how fkin PATHETIC are you ?!
 
TS seems to think BJJ is just submissions. TS is wrong.

One of the best BJJ fighters ever in MMA is Ricardo Arona, he only had two submission wins in his whole career and one of them was a submission to punches.
Arona was clearly better than Fedor in their match back in the day{<hhh]
 
Let’s do this scientifically, as everyone knows MMA maths is BS...
Can’t believe I’m having to do this on a martial arts forum, but here goes...
Argument - Big Nog and Fedor’s BJJ is overrated.
Mmmm, not very clear point to argue, how do you define overrated?
Did they sub other BJJ black belts? No, but as has already been pointed out, nor have many other fighters.
The thread quickly became Fedor has no jitsu.
This is just wrong. Easy to prove.
BJJ is derived from Jujitsu, itself closed related to Judo. They were at one point part of the same martial art.
Fedor is trained in Sambo, which is a Russian fighting system heavily influenced by Judo, which includes the submission techniques of jujitsu, as those techniques were originally in the judo syllabus.
So to say he has zero jujitsu is just wrong.
Anyone who watched any of his submission victories would see they are jujitsu techniques. And by definition they are also Sambo and Judo techniques.
In all fairness, I would seriously doubt anyone would enter an MMA fight with zero knowledge of jujitsu, they would have been shown some techniques at least at some stage in their training, even if they don’t use them predominantly in the cage/ring.
 
Arona was clearly better than Fedor in their match back in the day{<hhh]

You completely missed the point of my post.

But to respond to your post, there wasn't really anything clear about that match. I personally had it for Fedor but that was a highly controversial fight that went to overtime and where nearly 50% of people thought Arona won and 50% thought Fedor won.
 
I mean you look at high level sub grapplers generally and they don't tend to lose by submission much in MMA do they? typically only in there declining years as the chances of a "lucky sub" is far less than than a "lucky strike", maybe you could argue a guillotine can be a threat to anyone I spose but really it just doesnt happen much.

Added to that as well the test of someones skill in MMA isnt only about fighting opponents with the same skill, rather its about could they turn their skill to there advantage?

If you wanted to say Nog didnt have the BJJ vs BJJ skill level of Werdum then maybe you'd be correct although he was good enough to neutralise him in his prime and win via striking. What I would say though is I think Nog might have been better than Werdum in terms of exploiting his BJJ advantage, he was very good at hitting submissions during scambles which is I'd say more of a MMA specific skill set, alot of fighters like Crocop, Sylvia and Semmy got caught that way.

I mean another obvious example of this is Frank Mir, even moreso than Nog his sucess depends on going for aggressive subs in scambles rather than BJJ chess matches and he has a much worse record than Nog of getting beat up when not given openings in his prime vs guys like Freeman and Lesnar.

Nog to me was more a mix of strong technical BJJ and Mir, Palhares, Aoki, etc style aggressive submission fighting.
 
What I would say as well is I think theres a massive overestimation of the "evolution" of sub defense these days simple because there are so few really dangerous sub grapplers around anymore.

Modern fighters have alot of really bad habits, most obvious giving up your back to stand up is absolutely endemic in MMA these days.

When you have someone like Khabib it shows you just how questionable this idea everyone in modern MMA has great sub defence actually is. He made Gaethe look just as clueless as Nog did Coleman, maybe worse.
 
A good way to show the whole world that you don't know anything is to speak about "Fedor's BJJ".
 
I mean you look at high level sub grapplers generally and they don't tend to lose by submission much in MMA do they? typically only in there declining years as the chances of a "lucky sub" is far less than than a "lucky strike", maybe you could argue a guillotine can be a threat to anyone I spose but really it just doesnt happen much.

Added to that as well the test of someones skill in MMA isnt only about fighting opponents with the same skill, rather its about could they turn their skill to there advantage?

If you wanted to say Nog didnt have the BJJ vs BJJ skill level of Werdum then maybe you'd be correct although he was good enough to neutralise him in his prime and win via striking. What I would say though is I think Nog might have been better than Werdum in terms of exploiting his BJJ advantage, he was very good at hitting submissions during scambles which is I'd say more of a MMA specific skill set, alot of fighters like Crocop, Sylvia and Semmy got caught that way.

I mean another obvious example of this is Frank Mir, even moreso than Nog his sucess depends on going for aggressive subs in scambles rather than BJJ chess matches and he has a much worse record than Nog of getting beat up when not given openings in his prime vs guys like Freeman and Lesnar.

Nog to me was more a mix of strong technical BJJ and Mir, Palhares, Aoki, etc style aggressive submission fighting.
Great post, out of likes.
 
Big nog was past his prime when he got subbed by Mir, but even so Mir is no slouch. There's no shame in getting subbed by a high level grappler like Mir.

Werdum has better bjj than 99.95% of the planet or something like that. Again, no shame in getting tapped by a guy like him, especially if that was the only submission loss of your career.
 
Big nog was past his prime when he got subbed by Mir, but even so Mir is no slouch. There's no shame in getting subbed by a high level grappler like Mir.

Werdum has better bjj than 99.95% of the planet or something like that. Again, no shame in getting tapped by a guy like him, especially if that was the only submission loss of your career.

Thats another big issue, back in the 00's there were really no established elite sub grapplers who were past their prime, no chance to chalk up "names" the way Werdum did to Nog in 2014 for example.

If Werdum were really THAT much better than everyone in Pride why wasnt he able to do anything to Nog and Sergei? by comparison Barnett subbed Sergei, does that mean Barnett is better than Werdum? I think most would agree the difference was Sergei was a much worse grappler by that point either due to injury or having been mostly focused on kickboxing training.
 
Sucks is absolutely the wrong word as their skills were significantly above average. But they were overhyped.
 
That's why it's crazy to think Fedor and Big Nog have anything but a punchers chance against elite HW wrestlers with Black/Brown belts like Sea level Cain and DC.

I don't know... If prime Fedor is on top against those guys... well... let's just say it wouldn't be to comfortable for them.
 
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