Bicep Slicer: could it be any more badass?

[randomg1t]

not that it's relevant in this debate, but i was under the impression it was illegal in gi bjj competition? or am i talking out of my ass?

and yeah, the bicep slicer is a nasty counter to the armbar defense. i prefer other, less painful ways to open up their arms though.

 

[notshayndavis]

not that it's relevant in this debate, but i was under the impression it was illegal in gi bjj competition? or am i talking out of my ass?

and yeah, the bicep slicer is a nasty counter to the armbar defense. i prefer other, less painful ways to open up their arms though.

I'm pretty sure you're right, at least at lower belts.

Its not the brutality of the bicep slicer I like so much though, just the efficiency. Only requiring one arm, gives you something to post out on, so you're not worried about them turning into you before their grip is broken. Of course you can still take the back from there, but now you're fighting for a good position you already had, ya know.

I don't think it should be illegal though, just treated with respect like any other sub. I meen if someones not tapping to a fully extended armbar of mine, I'm not gonna try to break their arm either, bicep slicer shouldn't be any different.

 

[Locoplatypus]

Bicep slicer is awesome. I guess what happens is that it puts pressure on a tendon which attaches to the forearm and can break the forearm. Remember how to tap. I wouldn't tap to slicers before I heard that

To be fair, the actual intended damage from a bicep slicer is explained in the definition of the submission, which is.. technically.. an expansion lock. Most joint locks move the joint beyond it's normal range of movement. But the bicep slicer moves it WITH it's normal range of movement, so how can it do serious damage? Many people still believe (for any number of silly reasons) that the bicep slicer can't do any serious damage.

But it's not just the forearm that is prone to breaking. The nature of an expansion-lock is the same as if you have a very flexible twig from a tree. To break it you can't just fold it in half, it simply bends and the material doesn't separate. However, if you put another twig inbetween the fulcrum point and bend it over and around it, eventually the strain will cause the break on the outside as the material can't stretch further.

The reason being, in terms of an arm, that because the arm is forced to keep going around the extra large leverage point, instead of stopping at it's original range where it can't go any further, it travels too far causing the joint to expand around the object you jammed in between. The joint expands outwards and eventually breaks off the tendons holding it in place.

Like so. (Using twigs as a reference because I'm not all that good at drawing anatomy from the inside)

Because it is difficult to get though, and because not a lot of people understand how it works (by my understanding from reading online =) ) it may often be performed a little below par. But because of the amount of pure force you get from creating that extra large fulcrum the forearm which is relatively thin compared to the rest of your arm can take damage. Usually people need to have a pre-existing injury for the forearm to just snap in half like in that video earlier in the thread though, but hairline fractures can occur as far as I've heard.


Edit: Apparently also called a compression lock =) Maybe that's the more correct term.

 

[Genki Pseudo]

oh that's naasty

 

[Trudge]

I'm pretty sure you're right, at least at lower belts.

Its not the brutality of the bicep slicer I like so much though, just the efficiency. Only requiring one arm, gives you something to post out on, so you're not worried about them turning into you before their grip is broken. Of course you can still take the back from there, but now you're fighting for a good position you already had, ya know.

I don't think it should be illegal though, just treated with respect like any other sub. I meen if someones not tapping to a fully extended armbar of mine, I'm not gonna try to break their arm either, bicep slicer shouldn't be any different.

its not a legal move in tournaments because its a "pain" move, if your adrenaline is pumping, somebody could get a bicep slicer on you and you can fight through the pain for quite a long time, you only realise a while later that youve done permanent damage
so basically its a very dangerous move

 

[chris1190]

its not a legal move in tournaments because its a "pain" move, if your adrenaline is pumping, somebody could get a bicep slicer on you and you can fight through the pain for quite a long time, you only realise a while later that youve done permanent damage
so basically its a very dangerous move

IMO thats a pretty dumb reason to make it illegal. In fact that is like the exact opposite of the reason why a heelhook is illegal (no pain until it's to late). So no pain= illegal and pain=illegal ? based on that justification just about every submission out there would be illegal.

 

[bagelgod]

its not a legal move in tournaments because its a "pain" move, if your adrenaline is pumping, somebody could get a bicep slicer on you and you can fight through the pain for quite a long time, you only realise a while later that youve done permanent damage
so basically its a very dangerous move

It is legal at brownbelt level.

Also it's igorance towards what can happen due to the submission rather than the submission itself that is hurting people. Personally, doesn't make any sense why it's banned for lower belts. Whatevs.

 

[Hillary]

Bicep slicers are legal at brown/black belt...I finished my first match in the absolute at worlds with one. I love them.

 

[Falufalump]

I think when it comes to making or not making a move legal is all dependent on a skill to injury continuum.

Does the move require a certain level of skill, and if so, what is the likely hood that it will present injury in application?

 

[chaospfa]

There was this TapOut douche that wanted to train at our gym, said he was a purple in Gracie Combatives, so my instructor told me to roll with him. I pull guard and hook his arm for an arm bar, he stands up to defend and to break my closed guard. As he pulls his arm away I scissor it and he loses his balance when I start cranking, I turn over onto my belly and he falls face first onto the mats, when he hit the ground I heard a 'pop' as his radial bone broke. Next day he comes to the gym with his friends wanting them to kick my ass. Ah, good times.

 

[irc]

IMO thats a pretty dumb reason to make it illegal. In fact that is like the exact opposite of the reason why a heelhook is illegal (no pain until it's to late). So no pain= illegal and pain=illegal ? based on that justification just about every submission out there would be illegal.

Really dude? This is your analysis?

 

[Forkfoot]

Accepted grappling etiquette is to tap when the submission is sunk in, regardless is any pressure is applied, or is it just me?

Universally "accepted grappling ettiquette" is nonexistent. That's why every time someone makes a "guess what this one douche did to me last night!!!" thread, half the replies are always "What's wrong with that? Quit being a pussy."

 

[Clinchster]

my gym calls it a "hinch Pinch"..haha

 

[BSFT]

Universally "accepted grappling ettiquette" is nonexistent. That's why every time someone makes a "guess what this one douche did to me last night!!!" thread, half the replies are always "What's wrong with that? Quit being a pussy."

QFT. Each gym has it's own vibe, just go with the proverbial flow

 

[Trudge]

I think when it comes to making or not making a move legal is all dependent on a skill to injury continuum.

Does the move require a certain level of skill, and if so, what is the likely hood that it will present injury in application?

i would say its fairly dangerous because if you dont know what it is, youd fight through it

 

[dza76wutang]

I think when it comes to making or not making a move legal is all dependent on a skill to injury continuum.

Does the move require a certain level of skill, and if so, what is the likely hood that it will present injury in application?

I would also add ease of unintentional injury. I may be splitting hairs here but moves like heel hooks are much more conducive to accidental injuries than say kneebars because the heel hook requires minimal strength/exertion and a difference between severe injury and no injury is like 5 degrees.