Best submission artist from the bottom?

[Osiris3657]

He's great and has great chokes (obviously his Ezekiel being the the go-to) but he's not a good enough grappler to hang with "the best black belts". Not even close. Even when he was younger, he wasn't a Werdum-level grappler. I realize he's old, but look how Gordon Ryan just toyed with him recently.

Not going to pretend I know, but does Ryan only compete as a HW in grappling? Wondering if he can cut to 185 when he transitions to MMA. I want to see him against Rodolfo Vieira

 

[KID Yamamoto]

Paul sass... ortega... Ryan Hall

It's hard to put Hall as one of the best considering he really hasn't subbed a lot of high-level guys in the UFC yet. He subbed Penn sure but like, cmon. Penn hasn't had a serious training camp in 10 years and is washed up. Ortega is good but does he get a lot off his back?

 

[MichaelT]

Jason McDonald repeatedly jumped into Demian's guard like he thought he was Jacare. Such an awesome fight, even if it was a dumb strategy.

Its probably my favorite fight to watch for grappling

 

[KID Yamamoto]

Not going to pretend I know, but does Ryan only compete as a HW in grappling? Wondering if he can cut to 185 when he transitions to MMA. I want to see him against Rodolfo Vieira

He's not a natural HW and spoke about 205 when coming to MMA. He's 24 but had some nasty knee injuries already just cause of how he trains. Would be interesting to see what he could do. ONE FC is bringing up his buddy Garry tonnon very slowly.

 

[mkess101]

Not going to pretend I know, but does Ryan only compete as a HW in grappling? Wondering if he can cut to 185 when he transitions to MMA. I want to see him against Rodolfo Vieira

At ADCC he competed last year at <99 kg (218 lbs and under). He won that and the absolute division. His body has umm...changed a bit over the past few years. I think 185 isn't in the cards, my guess is he'd compete at LHW in MMA if he does transition. I know he's said he plans on it, but...?

 

[Ares Black]

Shockingly SBG is a pretty heavy jiu Jitsu gym and has produced good guys like Gunner nelson. Conor being a fantastic boxing specialist out of it really isn't the norm.

So is Dillon Danis saying that McGregor is a better grappler than Nelson?

 

[KID Yamamoto]

At ADCC he competed last year at <99 kg (218 lbs and under). He won that and the absolute division. His body has umm...changed a bit over the past few years. I think 185 isn't in the cards, my guess is he'd compete at LHW in MMA if he does transition. I know he's said he plans on it, but...?

HW BJJ isn't super crazy. Its a lot of roided up smaller guys or those who just don't give a fuck. He was supposed to go against werdum who's old as shit but that fell out to a injury on ryans part (if I am correct)
He has subbed almost every name around those weight classes. Vinny magalhaes bullied him hard and kinda make any attempt at his legs a joke though to be fair.
I don't know we will have to see how he translates well. He likes guard A LOT. Which is risky as hell in MMA even for the highest level BJJ guys. Aoki and Nog would just take punishment a lot of the time from guard and people wised up to just not going into it. Maia, Aoki and Big nog (at times) would just straight up lose major fights if they couldn't pull or sweep guys into their guards. (Maia vs usman, Aoki vs Melendez and so on)

 

[KID Yamamoto]

So is Dillon Danis saying that McGregor is a better grappler than Nelson?

Gotta defend your boyfriend man. It's called being supportive.

 

[Ares Black]

Gotta defend your boyfriend man. It's called being supportive.

Very romantic.

 

[eworden78]

Noguiera is another pride guy who stopped being effective once he came to the UFC. I take all those pride records with a pinch of salt. Crocops fearsome leg kicks, redundant in UFC. Noguieras sub game, redundant in the UFC etc.

This is a semi-myth.
Nog had his last fight in Pride on NY Eve 2006. According to Fight Matrix he was ranked #3* in the world.
He peaked at #2 in the world after beating Sylvia in 2008.
He dropped to #4 in the world after an upset loss to Mir.
He move back up to #3 after beating Couture.

So his first three years in the UFC:

• Won Interim HW title
• Went 4-1
• Was ranked as high as #2 as low as #4.

Even after that, his next 2 years:

• Went 2-2
• Lost Flash KO to a beast in Velasquez
• Lost in a semi-flukey arm break to Mir. (don't want to argue about this, but it was a weird fight)
• Stayed in the top 10 rankings.

*All rankings based on Historical Generated rankings from Fight Matrix. I use them because they are the least biased and most convenient.
They aren't always the most accurate, so take that with a grain of salt.

 

[mkess101]

HW BJJ isn't super crazy. Its a lot of roided up smaller guys or those who just don't give a fuck. He was supposed to go against werdum who's old as shit but that fell out to a injury on ryans part (if I am correct)
He has subbed almost every name around those weight classes. Vinny magalhaes bullied him hard and kinda make any attempt at his legs a joke though to be fair.
I don't know we will have to see how he translates well. He likes guard A LOT. Which is risky as hell in MMA even for the highest level BJJ guys. Aoki and Nog would just take punishment a lot of the time from guard and people wised up to just not going into it. Maia, Aoki and Big nog (at times) would just straight up lose major fights if they couldn't pull or sweep guys into their guards. (Maia vs usman, Aoki vs Melendez and so on)

Yeah I'd be interested to see how his guard heavy leglock game plays in MMA. Some guys just can't take being punched in the face at all either. Vinny was smart in that match whenever that was, a couple years ago? Knew to just shove Ryan straight down when he went for the leg, Vinny had really good balance and never let either leg get isolated. In a sub only match with no time limit I'd still take Ryan to beat him but Vinny is exactly the kind of grappler to shut down Gordon in a timed match with points.

 

[NicholasJBasile]

I know many of you will jump to say El Cucuy but.

Anthony SHOWTIME Pettis is my pick!

Benson Henderson has competed on the highest level grappling events(ADCC, Polaris, etc..) and Pettis subbed him in 1 round. It's not like he was an upcoming unknown prospect, He had enough tape to study of him including a previous match they had where he couldnt do shit on the ground to him.

People always going on about how charles oliviera is a bjj wizard. Pettis still subbed him.

Also, cant forget that time he cought Gil Melendez while he was shooting in.

Or the back to back triangle chokes from the bottom he had back in WEC.

Pettis could have easily been an ATG in bjj if he only did it as a career from the start.

Pettis is up there for sure. His MMA BJJ from the bottom is really impressive but in a somewhat bizarre way -- he gives up his back a lot and tends to give out physically (i.e. his last fight and against Poirier), but he is so hard to finish from top from pretty much any position it seems -- Oliveira and Diaz both couldn't finish him from the back. Add his obvious impressive submissions from the back either from pulling guard with the guillotine or setting up slick and fundamentally sound basic finishes? He's definitely on my short list.

 

[Jarvan]

I know many of you will jump to say El Cucuy but.

Anthony SHOWTIME Pettis is my pick!

Benson Henderson has competed on the highest level grappling events(ADCC, Polaris, etc..) and Pettis subbed him in 1 round. It's not like he was an upcoming unknown prospect, He had enough tape to study of him including a previous match they had where he couldnt do shit on the ground to him.

People always going on about how charles oliviera is a bjj wizard. Pettis still subbed him.

Also, cant forget that time he cought Gil Melendez while he was shooting in.

Or the back to back triangle chokes from the bottom he had back in WEC.

Pettis could have easily been an ATG in bjj if he only did it as a career from the start.

Benson competed, but he always lost

Not saying he's not good, but he's a better MMA fighter than he is a pure grappler.

 

[kpoz12]

FEDOR.

Besides the Giant Silva fight, you never saw him on his back for long: he would either ice and armbar, or threaten with it so much that he would stand up as his opponent retreated,

 

[KID Yamamoto]

Yeah I'd be interested to see how his guard heavy leglock game plays in MMA. Some guys just can't take being punched in the face at all either. Vinny was smart in that match whenever that was, a couple years ago? Knew to just shove Ryan straight down when he went for the leg, Vinny had really good balance and never let either leg get isolated. In a sub only match with no time limit I'd still take Ryan to beat him but Vinny is exactly the kind of grappler to shut down Gordon in a timed match with points.

alejandro perez vs ian entwistle is a good Bantam weight fight to reflect some issues of a heavy leg lock game in MMA. Perez was/is a consistent top 15 BW out of AKA to be fair but it highlights issues.

You don't have a ton of time to work in MMA from that position and you can get fucking wailed on hard. Guys like tony would just give up attacking any form of legs for a Eddie bravo styled rubber guard and near head subs. Which removes a lot of punching and can help you attack from there (I.E elbows)
Aoki would get some crazy subs but only holds one heel hook over Eddie Alvarez in their fight. Eddie is one of the best Lightweights ever and was on a monster run but didn't respect heel hooks at the time.

EDIT: He got Kawajiri with a Achilles lock. Another great win but I still feel my point stands.

 

[mkess101]

alejandro perez vs ian entwistle is a good Bantam weight fight to reflect some issues of a heavy leg lock game in MMA. Perez was/is a consistent top 15 BW out of AKA to be fair but it highlights issues.

You don't have a ton of time to work in MMA from that position and you can get fucking wailed on hard. Guys like tony would just give up attacking any form of legs for a Eddie bravo styled rubber guard and near head subs. Which removes a lot of punching and can help you attack from there (I.E elbows)
Aoki would get some crazy subs but only holds one heel hook over Eddie Alvarez in their fight. Eddie is one of the best Lightweights ever and was on a monster run but didn't respect heel hooks at the time.

EDIT: He got Kawajiri with a Achilles lock. Another great win but I still feel my point stands.

Yeah I mean you can use the threat of the leglock at times effectively. For sweeps, etc. Palhares obviously won plenty of fights with them, but then when someone came in prepared and made him pay (Alan Belcher), he got his face smashed. Oliveira used them well vs Lee recently for a nice sweep and to simply make Kevin defend. Ryan Hall obviously attacks well with them when he can get anyone to engage him on the mat.

But it's a dangerous game to play for sure, you leave yourself so exposed.

 

[KillerIsBack V2]

Benson competed, but he always lost

Not saying he's not good, but he's a better MMA fighter than he is a pure grappler.

He got third place in No gi world championship both as a brown belt and as a black belt...
He beat AJ Agazarm a big name in grappling... Benson is a decent world level grappler.

So no.. he didnt "always" lose.

 

[djacobox372]

Anderson subbed the michael jordan of BJJ from the bottom.

 

[KID Yamamoto]

Yeah I mean you can use the threat of the leglock at times effectively. For sweeps, etc. Palhares obviously won plenty of fights with them, but then when someone came in prepared and made him pay (Alan Belcher), he got his face smashed. Oliveira used them well vs Lee recently for a nice sweep and to simply make Kevin defend. Ryan Hall obviously attacks well with them when he can get anyone to engage him on the mat.

But it's a dangerous game to play for sure, you leave yourself so exposed.

Yeah I figured it would be used more of a sweep to get to position or a threat. Kinda like Kimura's now. Garry tonnon has gotten some subs from there. His last fighter subbed a pretty good pancrase vet with a heel hook.

Yoshiki's defence wasn't that solid for it but he got him none the less. He kinda fucked up like Penn did when Hall tapped him.

 

[KID Yamamoto]

He got third place in No gi world championship both as a brown belt and as a black belt...
He beat AJ Agazarm a big name in grappling... Benson is a decent world level grappler.

So no.. he didnt "always" lose.

Benson is very hard to tap.Watch him fight Adam piccoloti and see adam throw every single sub at him and see him escape.
Pettis subbing him from guard is still absurd.