Best Grappling Base: BJJ vs Sambo vs Catch Wrestling

[Canned Tuna]

Well one of the things that got me thinking is how popular beliefs are often wrong. From a critical thinking perspective there is almost no relationship between what the truth is and how many people believe it to be the truth. There is the whole fallacy of people thinking "if a million people believe it then it must be true" . That got me thinking about the technical side of mma. There are popular beliefs about which styles are most effective and that could in part be influenced by which styles are most heavily marketed. There are certainly effective techniques in BJJ but part of the question is whether it is the most effective grappling style for mma purposes. Is it really the best or did the Gracie's just do a really good job of marketing it and creating schools to promote it?

Sambo and catch wrestling are much less popular but it is at least possible that they could be superior forms of training for mma purposes.

I think your point about competitors is interesting. Without high quality training partners and competitions it can be difficult to hone skills. I guess this is partly a theoretical debate as I am curious from a purely technique standpoint which is the best grappling base.

I also find that one of the downsides of many mma gyms is that they can be dogmatic. Unlike the Bruce Lee philosophy of taking the best from all martial arts and discarding the rest there is still a style centric approach. There are a large number of mma gyms that just teach bjj and muay thai, even then the muay thai isn't really authentic.

The MMA gyms I have been to haven't been like that. The BJJ instructors are sometimes like that, but I've never met a head coach/gym owner like that. They've all been open to anything that's effective. In one of my other posts in this thread I mentioned that "no-gi BJJ" in America is basically catch wrestling. In my experience almost all of the guys who favor no gi are former wrestlers and/or fighters who want to learn any and all grappling techniques that work.

But yeah, I think the quality of coaching and the skill level of training partners and competitors are by far the most important factors in how skilled and successful in competition a person becomes. Both of those factors are influenced by popularity of the art.

That's just from a realistic standpoint of what's going to yield the best results. In a world where coaching and training partners are equal in all three, I would say that sambo is best for self defense due to the jackets and the inclusion of strikes. I'd say catch wrestling would be best for MMA due to being no gi, the inclusion of wrestling, and the open minded attitude of the practitioners. Fighters are going to train striking separately anyway.

 

[ArtemV]

A mix, Khabib isn't just a sambo fighter, he has trained wrestling as a child and is also a judo black belt. He also has a bjj coach at AKA, so he is doing pretty well getting a good variety of styles.

 

[abrasion]

Catch is good for this rules.. time limit and short rounds

Sakuraba did quite well with long rounds/time limits.

 

[ArtemV]

None of them are nearly as comprehensive as bjj. I like Sambo a lot but it’s produced a minuscule number of top fighters. Bjj and Wrestling has produced tons of great fighters. Furthermore, every fighter practices bjj. Almost none ever study Combat Sambo

Probably because sambo sucks in the USA. BJJ is pretty huge there and wrestling has already been big for a while.

 

[Slatersan]

Maybe a question I should have asked is whether there is a preferable grappling base for current and prospective mma fighters for each weight class. BJJ was designed to rely less heavily on strength and athleticism. Is it possible that it is a superior base at lower weight classes and an inferior base at heavier weight classes? Are Sambo and catch wrestling better for the heavier weight classes where fighters are stronger and more powerful on average?

It does seem that in the heavier weight classes that there is a more narrow range of types of submissions. Is that based on fighters not knowing the right techniques or is it based on those techniques being much less effective against heavier and stronger fighters?

Smaller guys are always way more technical because they have to be. They arent going to muscle through anything if the guy they are against is bigger, stronger and skilled. Stand up grappling uses a lot of strength and explosiveness. Check out joe rogans podcast with John Danaher. He explains how bjj takes away that explosiveness so the smaller guy can win or at least be in less danger.

 

[basedgodfedor]

That was something that I was thinking. There are certain mma fighters that have been great grapplers and overall elite mma fighters during there era and they don't come from a BJJ or collegiate wrestling background. It made me wonder whether sambo, catch wrestling and judo are actually much more effective than people are giving them credit for and that they are being overlooked as a base for mma fighters.

I bet they are. Just seeing the new success from the Russian dudes shows how effecive sambo is

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Catch Wrestling is essentially folk style with submissions (because folkstyle is literally just catch with submissions removed) so I'd say it's the best base for physically controlling and tapping out opponents. Sakuraba is obviously the best example. I'd say that sambo is the next best, especially with combat sambo, followed by BJJ.

If you're talking pure availability, BJJ is the most easy to find and train - but there is a disproportionate amount of successful catch wrestlers and sambists in MMA despite so few practising the art. There are plenty of good fighters with BJJ background and plenty of bad ones... but there aren't really many BAD sambists or catch wrestlers in MMA.

 

[oldschoolmmafan]

Need a poll.

 

[Pain4Pain]

Barnett and Sakuraba are great catch wrestlers. It's not really taught out here in the states. Sambo is pretty rare but I have the pleasure to learn some at my gym.

I think sambo steve posts on Sherdog, it would be cool if we got him to post in this thread.

 

[itheuser]

Sombo in MMA? Where?

Guys, just train BJJ. You get more for your time, and it covers just about everything that other grappling styles avoid. It's a more detailed oriented grappling style than any other. Most MMA fighters are BJJ trained for a reason. BJJ is the most open, and accommodating grappling system.

Catch Wrestling is Bullshido. It's wrestling with some big guy submissions thrown in. There's nothing unique about it.

Sombo doesn't have any prominent practitioners who use any unique techniques from it. Sombo is known for its leg-locks, and not all of Sombo is Combat Sombo. Combat Sombo is only one wing of Sombo, and it mostly resembles amateur MMA.

Stop looking for reasons to avoid BJJ. I know, it came from a non Aryan country, but you need to get over that, and accept that you have to know it if you are going to get anywhere as an international grappler, or in MMA.

If you don't know BJJ, you're a joke on the grappling scene.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

BJJ really. Sambo and Catch are all very fun, but both of them don't allow chokes.

This gets misunderstood a lot. Every sambist knows all the basic chokes and can pull them off well - because they are legal in combat sambo - same goes for catch wrestlers - who largely compete in generic grappling - so chokes are taught in both of them, and they're all proficient with them.

 

[Lint]

Rules of MMA were tailored to make wrestling viable, if you want to learn something for MMA your safest bet will always be wrestling. But you should push for what you like.

Otherwise UFC would still be in Dana's basement, best fighter would be making almost 5k per tournament night.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Guys, just train BJJ. You get more for your time, and it covers just about everything that other grappling styles avoid. It's a more detailed oriented grappling style than any other. Most MMA fighters are BJJ trained for a reason. BJJ is the most open, and accommodating grappling system.

It's more that BJJ has had the most successful marketing, right down to the UFC literally being set up to showcase BJJ.

Catch Wrestling is Bullshido. It's wrestling with some big guy submissions thrown in. There's nothing unique about it.

Wrong - folkstyle wrestling is catch with the submissions removed to make it more suitable for youth competition. Also the idea that those submissions only work if you're big is a myth. Unique techniques inc. shin locks and face locks, which can double act as guard passes or set ups for chokes.

Sombo doesn't have any prominent practitioners who use any unique techniques from it.

Wrong:
Fedor Emelianenko
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Islam Makhachev
Zabit Magomedsharipov
Vitaly Minakov
Alexey Oleinik
Rustam Khabilov
Amari Akhmedov

^ This is just a handful, and doesn't include literally the entirety of Eagles MMA who are all combat sambists. Saying that they don't use techniques from it is ridiculous because there are so many techniques in sambo that there is bound to be cross over between them and other styles of grappling. All of those guys are good at working from the body lock, which is what typically sets sambo apart from judo - they're all good at controlling on the ground, and they're all good at throws and takedowns and chaining them together in combination.


I get that these martial arts are rarer, but considering I've trained in BJJ, 10th Planet, Catch and my base of Sambo, I know when I'm looking at one or the other.