Best Grappling Base: BJJ vs Sambo vs Catch Wrestling

[Krimzon]

sambo is jiu jitsu, only more advanced.

so sambo

 

[catchwrestle]

I've wrestled folk style and Catch. Had to adjust some of the folk-style "defense" because it left me open to subs. I freaking love catch. I'd say you don't see many "catch wrestling representatives" out there for a few reasons: few actual catch rules tournaments, no belt advancement system turns off some beginners, and its grueling. Not taking away from other grappling arts but catch practice usually sucked. I've never fought MMA but have worked grappling with many fighters who where prepping for fights and always had something to offer outside of the BJJ mindset.

 

[catchwrestle]

Part of what I am interested in is the best style to match with boxing. I think boxing is the best striking base to work with. I find that combat sambo, judo and greco-wrestling and possible catch wrestling work well with the boxing techniques. Alternatively I find BJJ and some of the other wrestling styles to not be very conducive with boxing techniques.

So I guess another question I could have had in this thread would be which grappling style match well with which striking styles?

You might want to check out Mark Hatmaker. His whole philosophy is what you're talking about.

 

[wufabufa]

The problem with Sambo is that they often don't have as many attacks from the guard as closed guard is illegal in Sambo competitions. That's why you see Sambo guys trying to grapevine their opponent's legs when trying to control them from the bottom. Where Sambo and Catch guys may excel leg locks and takedowns, they suffer from lackluster bottom games as catch wrestling also has pins, so being on your back is big no-no.

BJJ needs to catch up on the opposite of those. Poor takedowns and leg locks not taught until higher belt levels traditionally. With those weaknesses I would still pick BJJ as the best base of the arts listed since BJJ is positionally the most diverse. As a BJJ practitioner you shouldn't feel out of place anywhere on the mat. Top, side, bottom, halfgaurd......you should have it all.

As far as controlling where the fight goes or where it stays, folkstyle wrestling is king.

 

[Human Bass]

BJJ really. Sambo and Catch are all very fun, but both of them don't allow chokes.

 

[Canned Tuna]

Do you have a list of mma fighters with a catch wrestling base? When I have seen clips of the training techniques and the techniques by Erik Paulson it seems like a really interesting style. It comes across as a violent and aggressive grappling style.

As for combat sambo, Fedor and Khabib have been dominant it goes to show the effectiveness of the style. I wonder how many of the techniques can be transitioned over once the gi is eliminated.

Catch wrestling is held back by a small talent pool. As a style, it's great, but it won't produce top competitors without a higher level of competition. Level of competition doesn't go up without more competitors. The overshadowing popularity of BJJ has pretty much guaranteed that catch wrestling will not get big in the US any time soon.

Of the provided choices, BJJ is by far the best choice in the US. It has way more competitors resulting in higher level coaching and "iron sharpening iron." In Eastern Europe, I'm sure sambo is the way to go. I don't know if there is anywhere that catch wrestling has as high level coaching and training partners available as the other two.

The best choice is almost always whichever has the highest quality school in your area. The highest quality school is almost always going to be the most popular martial art in the area.

 

[tasticles]

If catch was the best there would be more then 1 or 2 dudes reppin it

How many schools are open to teach people? It's called Gracie propoganda and even they cross trained in catch. Also No gi BJJ is pretty much the same shit in most schools. You're splitting hairs here as there are a lot of submission schools and some people use freestyle, mma or whatever label they feel like.

 

[welcometohavoc]

Sambo, specifically Combat Sambo for mixing in striking. In MMA striking is a part of grappling.

Meh BJJ guys have been just as successful if not more so than Sambo guys in MMA.

Catch wrestling is hard to guage because there's so few who start out as catch wrestlers

 

[catchwrestle]

BJJ really. Sambo and Catch are all very fun, but both of them don't allow chokes.

Wrong. I've wrestled catch tournaments and the only things that weren't allowed were strikes, eye gouges and fish hooks.

 

[Canned Tuna]

Meh BJJ guys have been just as successful if not more so than Sambo guys in MMA.

Catch wrestling is hard to guage because there's so few who start out as catch wrestlers

That's true, but no-gi BJJ (at least in the US) is pretty much catch wrestling. It's a ton of guys with strong folkstyle wrestling backgrounds who cross train in every form of submission grappling that they can.

 

[welcometohavoc]

That's true, but no-gi BJJ (at least in the US) is pretty much catch wrestling. It's a ton of guys with strong folkstyle wrestling backgrounds who cross train in every form of submission grappling that they can.

Fair enough

 

[basedgodfedor]

How many schools are open to teach people? It's called Gracie propoganda and even they cross trained in catch. Also No gi BJJ is pretty much the same shit in most schools. You're splitting hairs here as there are a lot of submission schools and some people use freestyle, mma or whatever label they feel like.

I mean it is obviously useful but the term "catch wrestling" is legit only used by sakuraba and Barnett and they are both older guys. I do believe it needs more recognition cus those two dudes are grappling gods. didn't know it was referred to by other names though so thanks

 

[Deleted member 245586]

Well this should be tough to figure out.

Every single UFc fighter trains BJJ. It is taught in every noteworthy MMA gym.

 

[Slatersan]

Sambo/ judo takes a really long time to get good at. Bjj you can get decent fairly fast. One thing mma has showed us though is one single art isnt enough. The bjj guy isn’t going to have takedowns that can compete with a wrestler or sambo guy. The wrestler or sambo guy wont have as many submissions on the ground. I dont think khabib is a fair representation of any single art because he uses several different grappling styles that he has been training his entire life. The best base in my opinion is wrestling because you can control where the fight goes but try to be just a wrestler and put a guy like ortega on his back and youre in trouble. On the flipside pull guard on khabib and youre in trouble.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

You might want to check out Mark Hatmaker. His whole philosophy is what you're talking about.

I have seen a lot of Mark Hatmaker's material. I really like what he has to say and find his instructional material to be very informative.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

Catch wrestling is held back by a small talent pool. As a style, it's great, but it won't produce top competitors without a higher level of competition. Level of competition doesn't go up without more competitors. The overshadowing popularity of BJJ has pretty much guaranteed that catch wrestling will not get big in the US any time soon.

Of the provided choices, BJJ is by far the best choice in the US. It has way more competitors resulting in higher level coaching and "iron sharpening iron." In Eastern Europe, I'm sure sambo is the way to go. I don't know if there is anywhere that catch wrestling has as high level coaching and training partners available as the other two.

The best choice is almost always whichever has the highest quality school in your area. The highest quality school is almost always going to be the most popular martial art in the area.

Well one of the things that got me thinking is how popular beliefs are often wrong. From a critical thinking perspective there is almost no relationship between what the truth is and how many people believe it to be the truth. There is the whole fallacy of people thinking "if a million people believe it then it must be true" . That got me thinking about the technical side of mma. There are popular beliefs about which styles are most effective and that could in part be influenced by which styles are most heavily marketed. There are certainly effective techniques in BJJ but part of the question is whether it is the most effective grappling style for mma purposes. Is it really the best or did the Gracie's just do a really good job of marketing it and creating schools to promote it?

Sambo and catch wrestling are much less popular but it is at least possible that they could be superior forms of training for mma purposes.

I think your point about competitors is interesting. Without high quality training partners and competitions it can be difficult to hone skills. I guess this is partly a theoretical debate as I am curious from a purely technique standpoint which is the best grappling base.

I also find that one of the downsides of many mma gyms is that they can be dogmatic. Unlike the Bruce Lee philosophy of taking the best from all martial arts and discarding the rest there is still a style centric approach. There are a large number of mma gyms that just teach bjj and muay thai, even then the muay thai isn't really authentic.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

I mean it is obviously useful but the term "catch wrestling" is legit only used by sakuraba and Barnett and they are both older guys. I do believe it needs more recognition cus those two dudes are grappling gods. didn't know it was referred to by other names though so thanks

That was something that I was thinking. There are certain mma fighters that have been great grapplers and overall elite mma fighters during there era and they don't come from a BJJ or collegiate wrestling background. It made me wonder whether sambo, catch wrestling and judo are actually much more effective than people are giving them credit for and that they are being overlooked as a base for mma fighters.

 

[Lawrence]

American folk style wrestling is the best base—period.

Even though lay and pray sucks shit, it wins fights.

Folk style is the best way to control where the fight goes. Its the best way to be a competitive fighter while you’re still developing your other skills.

Ya got a point.

Freestyle wrestling excellence made Johnny Hendrix, Chael into potent strikers, but that doesn’t translate to every great wrestler.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

Sambo/ judo takes a really long time to get good at. Bjj you can get decent fairly fast. One thing mma has showed us though is one single art isnt enough. The bjj guy isn’t going to have takedowns that can compete with a wrestler or sambo guy. The wrestler or sambo guy wont have as many submissions on the ground. I dont think khabib is a fair representation of any single art because he uses several different grappling styles that he has been training his entire life. The best base in my opinion is wrestling because you can control where the fight goes but try to be just a wrestler and put a guy like ortega on his back and youre in trouble. On the flipside pull guard on khabib and youre in trouble.

Maybe a question I should have asked is whether there is a preferable grappling base for current and prospective mma fighters for each weight class. BJJ was designed to rely less heavily on strength and athleticism. Is it possible that it is a superior base at lower weight classes and an inferior base at heavier weight classes? Are Sambo and catch wrestling better for the heavier weight classes where fighters are stronger and more powerful on average?

It does seem that in the heavier weight classes that there is a more narrow range of types of submissions. Is that based on fighters not knowing the right techniques or is it based on those techniques being much less effective against heavier and stronger fighters?

 

[Blayt7hh]

None of them are nearly as comprehensive as bjj. I like Sambo a lot but it’s produced a minuscule number of top fighters. Bjj and Wrestling has produced tons of great fighters. Furthermore, every fighter practices bjj. Almost none ever study Combat Sambo