Best base for MMA imo(boxing)

RudimarChute said:
What about Muay Thai? Many of the top Thais have hundreds of fights by the time they are 20. Alot of Nak Muays fight multiple times a week for several weeks in a row, and trust me your entire body gets punished and your chin definitely gets tested.

Also, saying that Jiu-Jitsu guys don't have heart is ignorant, they make way less than boxers by your own admission that shows more heart and a love for their sport. What about Jacare getting his arm broken and still winning against Roger?
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World class Muay thai would be a great base, but i'd still take boxing. I nor anyone on this thread has said that BJJers don't have heart. What i have said is that you can make it to the top levels of BJJ without great heart and for sure without great chin something you can't say about the top levels of boxing. ect. Vinnie, Lutter, Gonzaga and the list goes on and on
 
Best base = BJJ

Are we seriously still having this argument? Seriously?
 
symphonyx547 said:
Everyone here knows that a pure grappler beats a pure striker or close to pure, but that's not the point of this thread. It's the best base. A world class striker which we've seen very few even try to come to MMA(K1 guys, but i think High level boxers would be better off) can develope his whole game within 3 years to have every thing work toward his strength. Where as a world class wrestler in 3 years will have garbage striking and low level BJJ, so his only option is LNP which we see so much of these days
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YouTube - frank shamrocks opinion on boxing
 
symphonyx547 said:
Those two are coming around well, but there are guys like Hughes that can do a life long of striking and never become a good striker. There's alot of guys like that. Cro Cop, bass rutten and many others grappling developed faster then Koschecks striking has
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Shot yourself in the foot there mate. Hughes was the most dominant welterweight champion, and he didn't have good striking as you said.

How many boxers have been champions on their boxing alone??? none so it isn't the best base.

Bas rutten said himself on inside MMA wrestling is the best base to have, you can argue cro cop all you want but Nog still submitted him

grappler>striker hence grappling>boxing for best base in MMA
 
symphonyx547 said:
Yeah i agree with Frank and his point is what i'm saying
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no that aint you're point the point you're trying to make is boxing is the best base and frank didn't say anything like that he just said that the striking is lacking in MMA. This can be due to the simple fact that striking isn't needed as much in MMA as it is in boxing cause there;s more thing you can draw on to win the fight.
 
symphonyx547 said:
Everyone here knows that a pure grappler beats a pure striker or close to pure, but that's not the point of this thread. It's the best base. A world class striker which we've seen very few even try to come to MMA(K1 guys, but i think High level boxers would be better off) can develope his whole game within 3 years to have every thing work toward his strength. Where as a world class wrestler in 3 years will have garbage striking and low level BJJ, so his only option is LNP which we see so much of these days
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No you can't and to think you can is just plain foolish.
 
The TS brings up some great points.

However, wrestling is by far the best discipline to have in MMA and i'm a huge boxing/MT fan. I dont think people can even argue this anymore.

The biggest challenge coming from a grappling background is that those guys have never been hit. And no sport in the world tests your testicular fortitude moreso than boxing. There are very, VERY few people on this planet that can take and give the punishment that Vasquez/Marquez, Cotto/Margarito gave to each other. Those are the traits that make a fighter. And frankly, nobody wants to get hit, but in MMA there are few people who are afraid to get hit and thats a problem. In boxing especially at the high level, nobody is afraid to get hit, it comes with the territory of being a boxer.

There has never been a great boxer make the transition to MMA and the mediocre ones who have, have had successful careers ie. Lytle, Davis. And elite level boxers are some of the best athletes in the world so if lesser athletes can transition to MMA with success I see no reason why elite level boxers cannot.
 
What some people defend here is that :
* pure style boxing doesn't get far in MMA, unlike BJJ
* professional boxing tests your athletism and chin. Professional meaning journeyman, not necessarily De La Hoya
* hence almost any professional boxers "just" need to cross train grappling and TD defense to be proficient in MMA. Just being an understatement as grappling technique would take more than on life to fully master. But good boxers would just lack ggrappling (and leg) technique
* on the other side, some guys may become top level BJJ or wrestlers while lacking the chin or athleticism needed to be good in MMA, and while these guys could cross train striking technique as much as they want, they still wouldn't excel in MMA.
* The thing is : boxing will tell you wether you have the physical requirements (athleticism and chin) to excel in MMA far earlier than other styles, whereas a physically capped guy could achieve an excelllent BJJ level and be unable to make the transition to MMA.
* Boxing doesn't train fighters better, it just filters capped guys earlier

Symphony, can you confirm you agree with this ?
 
symphonyx547 said:
I think without a doubt it would be Boxing or other striking arts if i were to pick any single style to start with. The reason why i pick that isn't becasue a boxer by itself would beat a wrestler or BJJer becasue they wouldn't. It's the fact that they have something that you can't teach most people and that's being a fighter and having a fighters heart. This is something i see lacking with so many top grapplers i see coming into MMA and other grapplers in mma. Is this to say that all grapplers don't have heart of course not, but it's impossible to make it to the elite level in boxing without at least a very soild heart. Another thing that gets weeded out in boxing is weak chins. you can make it all the way to the upper levels in the UFC before you truely get your chin tested if your a soild fighter. I think think of many top level fighters in MMA that are either scared to get hit or have weak chins.


The thing is No top boxer would ever want to come to MMA becasue they get paid 10-100 times more to box. Of course as mma grows and boxing dies off we'll see more true fighters in mma
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Good points, I agree. I think it's easier to learn take down defense than to learn boxing.
 
Let's put it this way...what if the guy who started his base with boxing fights a guy with a good chin, and can't finish him? In BJJ you don't need to worry about that, because you just try to submit him. There's no "natural" defense to the proven methods of jiu-jitsu. Plain and simple. Any random schmoe can have a good chin, and land a good enough shot to KO you; however, there's no luck in getting a submission, and no "natural" advantage you can have that stops you from the blood getting cut off to your brain when caught in a submission like a triangle choke.

Also, grappling is much harder to get good at than boxing. Yes this is a matter of opinion, but I'll take the expert opinions of the many great strikers I have met in my time that ALL wish they would have started doing BJJ earlier.
 
I think a solid base in anything would be a good start, boxing definatly starts you off with good rhythym, timing, distance and footwork which also go a long way
 
madrobbo said:
We're arguing about base, the best background to have coming into MMA. My argument is boxing isn't that BJJ is.

I edited my first post cause people were giving me shit that i didn't read the full OP. The points TS points out don't really have anything to do with boxing except the chin part, but boxing doesn't teach you anything that muay thai doesn't i.e taking a hit etc and cause muay thai teaches you to defend/use more strikes it's a better STRIKING base, not overall base.

Untill pro boxers man the fuck up and take part in a tournament like they had in the old days the best base will always be either BJJ or wrestling.
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Thats the dumbest thing ive heard in awhile.

Why would they even care about MMA? They are competing the highest paid combat sport in the world. They dont need MMA. BJJ and wrestlers need MMA not boxers.

Its not about manning up, its about not wasting your time at some low level tournament when you could be training for your next upcoming fight.

There have been alot of mid-level boxers who have transitioned to MMA and all of them have had success. Lytle, Davis and even a low-level boxer in Sakara has established a pretty respectable MMA record.

And to this day I have never understood the Art Jimmerson example. Not only was this guy hurting for cash but the guy was wearing one 10oz glove. Not to mention the Royce Gracie UFC informericals back than werent exactly full of integrity.
 
Red Triangle said:
Let's put it this way...what if the guy who started his base with boxing fights a guy with a good chin, and can't finish him? In BJJ you don't need to worry about that, because you just try to submit him. There's no "natural" defense to the proven methods of jiu-jitsu. Plain and simple. Any random schmoe can have a good chin, and land a good enough shot to KO you; however, there's no luck in getting a submission, and no "natural" advantage you can have that stops you from the blood getting cut off to your brain when caught in a submission like a triangle choke.

Also, grappling is much harder to get good at than boxing. Yes this is a matter of opinion, but I'll take the expert opinions of the many great strikers I have met in my time that ALL wish they would have started doing BJJ earlier.
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Skills pay the bills. You dont go far at all just having a good chin and lacking in the skills department. The fact that you think some random schmoe can have a good chin and land a good enough shot to KO a relatively good boxer is ridiculous. I'm actually shocked someone would say that. Like Frank Shamrock said getting hit is unnatural. It takes a LONG time to learn how to take punishment. And even at the highest level of MMA you have fighters who are AFRAID to get hit, who close their eyes while punching, who leave their chin out. If you think these guys can land a lucky shot on an elite level boxer you are crazy and you must train with some very mediocre strikers if thats what you base your opinion on. At my boxing gym i've heard some stories that MMA guys like Sam Stout spar a featherweight boxing champion in Steve Molitor and Stout couldnt even lay a hand on him.

Thats like me saying in BJJ, wrestling you're talking about a sport where its athletes have NEVER been hit. I'd say thats a "natural" defense. Many MMA fighters have said you hit a BJJ guy once, he drops a belt, you hit him again he drops another belt. Look at Alberto Crane, great BJJ guy and he couldnt even beat high school wrestler Huerta at his own game.

What sport is harder is a matter of opinion. But in the last 2 weeks i've heard two MMA fighters say boxing is the hardest sport to learn. Frank Shamrock said it on Inside MMA, AA said boxing ALL about strategy and technique whereas MMA is different, and James Warring said boxing is tougher than MMA.

No disrespect to you but there are much better grapplers in MMA than strikers and its no secret MMA lacks the required striking skills to be competitive with even a mid-level boxer or Muay Thai fighter. So if some regional kickboxing champ on a farm in Iowa said grappling is tougher than striking is probably because 1) hes now competing in MMA 2) He has basic level striking skills.

There was a very short clip of Wand/Forrest sparring and let me tell you it was VERY UGLY to watch. And if Wand, Forrest are considered to be high level strikers in MMA than im not surprised at all to hear that grappling is harder in comparison to striking after seeing Wand/Forrest block punches with their face and elbows.

The point is you cant take guys who have reached the pinnacle of grappling and compare the skill level to mid-level strikers. The best strikers are not in MMA. But for the most part the best grapplers are at least a few of them.
 
IMO wrestling is the best base. It seems to me that wrestling is the hardest skill to pick up and excel at it (with the exception of GSP, but he's phenomenal). All these wrestlers are going into mma and are learning striking and subs at a very fast rate(Diego, Kos, Brock, Tito, Hughes, Couture, etc...). The same can't really be said to the same degree about bjj guys and strikers learning wrestling at the same rate.
Plus a wrestler can dictate whether the fight stays standing or hits the ground (which is extremely important in a fight, considering the opponents skills).
 
MMA has always been a grappler dominated sport and continues to stay that way. eventually every one that competes in MMA will have a wrestling background, whether it be free style, greco or judo. boxing and Bjj are must have skills for wrestlers though.
 
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