Best 170 pounder ever?

[Claude]

Woodley got beat by Shields so no

I meant the two of them would be enough to wipe GSP's competition.

 

[Claude]

Great poster ....one of the all-time best

Thanks. I know.

 

[Deleted member 581023]

Usman.

Bigger, better and less flawed than GSP, who got wrecked to submission by a can during his prime.

Man. I got ridiculed hard for including him as my ww goat on another thread last week.

 

[Claude]

GSP would outwrestle Usman lol.

Usman TD%... 47% while fighting RDAs, Maias, Emil Meeks lol
GSP TD% against many more proven legit wrestlers in his career - 74%

Not even debatable who is a better wrestler. GSP by a landslide.

Hendricks that fought GSP would also beat Usman.

 

[Claude]

He wasn't in his prime against Serra. Only 25 years old. No mma fighter is in his prime at that point.

Age =/= prime.

He was champion, #1 WW and was in his 5th year of career.

By all means in his prime. Sorry if you're don't like it.

 

[Deleted member 581023]

Where is your proof he has better TDD? Who has he faced that has good offensive wrestling that was unsuccessful by comparison to the guys GSP fought?

Woodley had a fake news great TDD% too and we saw how bullshit that was when a LW fucking wrestlefucked him.

GSP has far, far better striking, equal wrestling at worst along with equal cardio at worst and probably better BJJ.

GSP has far more athleticism than anyone Usman fought.

Why are you making him prove what’s impossible to prove? Why don’t you prove GSP has a better takedown defence than Usman.

 

[Claude]

I remember gsp completely dominating koscheck.

He did. But he did get taken down, which is a nice hint vs. Usman. See the gif above.

 

[Claude]

Alright boys. I'm out for now.

I'll refute your fanboy nonsense later.

Cheers.

 

[Strijfy]

Alright boys. I'm out for now.

I'll refute your fanboy nonsense later.

Cheers.

' refutes' fanboy' nonsense
Gargles Usmans load like a callous knee'd fanboy

 

[Gio]

Only watched UFC after Georges already retired, TS?

 

[Iron Nick]

My reply is in red.

Cheers.

Claude = red

"Then why did he have more setbacks?"

• Well, the Serra loss was due to GSP underestimating him and a bit of bad luck. When he lost to Hughes, he was younger than Usman when Usman lost by submission to a (far) inferior fighter than Hughes.

"Nog is one of the best fighters ever."

• It's funny that you act like Hughes is just so outdated, but then go on to say Nog is one of the *best* fighters ever. There are numerous fighter who're better than Nog was, be it GSP, DJ, Fedor, Jose Aldo, Anderson Silva, Jon Jones, DC, Dominick Cruz, Henry Cejudo, Khabib, Max Holloway, Alexander Volkanovski, Petr Yan, Conor McGregor, Tony Ferguson, Dustin Poirier, Frankie Edgar, Stipe Miocic, BJ Penn and many more.

"That wasn't my argument."

• You implied that it doesn't matter that Usman's best win (Colby) was at a size disadvantage, but have previously gone out of your way to point out that GSP fought smaller opponents, so yeah, this does matter and you've obviously outed yourself as a hypocrite who fails to consistently apply the same standards to fighters when comparing them.

"He doesn't have Usman's wrestling, athleticism or power."

• Yet he won against Dan Henderson and is one of the best welterweights ever. Oh, he also won against Woodley, who's Colby's best win. He also won against Maia, but not the ancient version that Colby and Usman beat, lol.

"Hughes was smaller and his striking was poor. Both Usman and Colby would crush him."

• Hughes was the same size, if not heavier than Colby, they'd probably have a very close fight. Usman's striking is poor too by the way and yet he is champion.

"Doesn't prove much vs. Usman. It's not a GOAT debate."

• Well, it does more to prove St-Pierre is superior than any of your "arguments" you provided for why Usman is supposed to be better than St-Pierre.

"Not against a can and not by tapping to strikes."

• Strange then, that GSP leads in the G.O.A.T.-poll then is by many fighters also thought to be the best fighter of all time.

"Dominating isn't necessarily being safe."

• Eh... Usman literally avoids striking exchanges way more than St-Pierre and he also attempts less submissions, so he does play it safer than St-Pierre.

"Against lower caliber fighters. So all irrelevant."

• I love how you keep bringing this up, because if i were to accept this as a fact, then Fedor wouldn't be close to be the greatest or best fighter of all time. The thing is though, that your statement is simply wrong. Colby's best win is a 38 year old Tyron Woodley, whereas GSP has (amongst other top fighters) a win over Shields, who literally beat a younger, superior version of Woodley.

"How were Silva and Weidman's striking stats when they fought? Who outstruck and KO'd who?"

• Imagine seriously thinking that a match up between a striker who was notorious for having difficulties with wrestlers is even remotely comparable to a match up between two wrestlers... holy shit...

"See how irrelevant it is?"

• It's fairly relevant when comparing fighters who both happen to be wrestlers, or at least have great wrestling, forst and foremost.

I hope you're still trolling, because some of the stuff you've said is straight up embarrassing for someone who claims to be anything more than a casual fan of this sport.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Records, top wins, title defenses, etc. are not reliable to predict fights. Eg. Silva vs. Weidman.

I think Usman beats GSP simply because he has the style to beat him. He's bigger, most likely stronger, has a better TDD, great wrestling, he's very athletic and has very dangerous hands. I think he can neutralize GSP's wrestling, put him on his back like Koscheck did, and hurt him or drop him like Serra, Condit, Hendricks did.

It's just a combo of skill and athleticism GSP was never close to facing.

They're not perfect predictors, but they're the best we have. For instance, suppose I say my cousin Vinny has better wrestling, striking, speed, athleticism and so on than either GSP or Usman. The argument against it is going to be "Who has he beat?" with all those amazing skills and abilities. In the end it comes down to someone's record, because everything else is so subjective that people will disagree. You see that regularly on Sherdog. People will disagree about who has better skills, speed, power etc, but the one thing everyone (well, almost everyone) agrees upon is the official record. Its the starting point for all these discussions, because its the only thing that everyone agrees upon.

You think Usman has skills and athleticism GSP was never close to facing. Others on this thread say the opposite. And I'm sure there are guys out there who'll pick some other WW and they they had better skills and athleticism than either GSP or Usman. There's never going to be anything even remotely like agreement on that. There is agreement on their official records though. My cousin Vinny, for all my claims about his amazing skills and athleticism, has no record, so my claim means nothing.

Its easier in something like track and field, or swimming. If you claim Usain Bolt is the fastest 100 meter runner ever, no matter what I say about Jesse Owens or anyone else, you can just point to their best times and the argument is over. Nothing like that exists in MMA, the closest we come is their records.

 

[johncola]

GSP is still up there but looking at top welters today, they generally seem more skilled. Thus, Usman is the obvious choice. But I've been soured on him since he was forced to game the system to "beat" Masvidal, because he couldn't beat Masvidal.

So now I'm thinking it's Conor McGregor.

 

[Claude]

Where is your proof he has better TDD? Who has he faced that has good offensive wrestling that was unsuccessful by comparison to the guys GSP fought?

Woodley had a fake news great TDD% too and we saw how bullshit that was when a LW fucking wrestlefucked him.

GSP has far, far better striking, equal wrestling at worst along with equal cardio at worst and probably better BJJ.

GSP has far more athleticism than anyone Usman fought.

Wrestling: Usman has 100% TDD. And he's the fighter who's spent less time on his back. (GSP fans be jelly).

Striking: Usman hasn't been dropped. GSP was, several times.

GSP was more flawed than Usman. That's just the truth you don't want to accept.

But GSP beat Shields in standup, who won a standup fight against Woodley.

These games are fun, Claudey.

So GSP has better stand-up than Woodley. That's your point?

Wow, lol.

' refutes' fanboy' nonsense
Gargles Usmans load like a callous knee'd fanboy

Don't hate me, hate the facts.

Claude = red

"Then why did he have more setbacks?"

• Well, the Serra loss was due to GSP underestimating him and a bit of bad luck. When he lost to Hughes, he was younger than Usman when Usman lost by submission to a (far) inferior fighter than Hughes.

Age =/= prime.

That's newbie stuff.

"Nog is one of the best fighters ever."

• It's funny that you act like Hughes is just so outdated, but then go on to say Nog is one of the *best* fighters ever. There are numerous fighter who're better than Nog was, be it GSP, DJ, Fedor, Jose Aldo, Anderson Silva, Jon Jones, DC, Dominick Cruz, Henry Cejudo, Khabib, Max Holloway, Alexander Volkanovski, Petr Yan, Conor McGregor, Tony Ferguson, Dustin Poirier, Frankie Edgar, Stipe Miocic, BJ Penn and many more.

LOL at your list.

"That wasn't my argument."

• You implied that it doesn't matter that Usman's best win (Colby) was at a size disadvantage, but have previously gone out of your way to point out that GSP fought smaller opponents, so yeah, this does matter and you've obviously outed yourself as a hypocrite who fails to consistently apply the same standards to fighters when comparing them.

No I didn't. All I said is that GSP was beating on smaller men compared to Usman/Colby.

"He doesn't have Usman's wrestling, athleticism or power."

• Yet he won against Dan Henderson and is one of the best welterweights ever. Oh, he also won against Woodley, who's Colby's best win. He also won against Maia, but not the ancient version that Colby and Usman beat, lol.

Hendo also lost to Misaki. He wasn't that great at MW. He was having a hard time cutting to MW. Plus he had a back injury vs. Shields. Dude was depleted.
Shields didn't take Woodley down, so it's irrelevant when the argument is about wreslting.

"Hughes was smaller and his striking was poor. Both Usman and Colby would crush him."

• Hughes was the same size, if not heavier than Colby, they'd probably have a very close fight. Usman's striking is poor too by the way and yet he is champion.

Colby has a bigger frame which means more leverage (reason people like Jones can outwrestle guys like DC). Hughes would get KO'd.
When's the last time Usman got dropped by a can? Or head kicked? No, Usman has less flawed stand-up than GSP.

"Doesn't prove much vs. Usman. It's not a GOAT debate."

• Well, it does more to prove St-Pierre is superior than any of your "arguments" you provided for why Usman is supposed to be better than St-Pierre.

No, when it comes to a fight, a "style makes fights" argument is a lot more relevant than posting stats, which are irrelevant. Eg. Silva vs. Weidman.

"Not against a can and not by tapping to strikes."

• Strange then, that GSP leads in the G.O.A.T.-poll then is by many fighters also thought to be the best fighter of all time.

That's your defense for GSP's flaws in the cage? A GOAT poll? lol

"Dominating isn't necessarily being safe."

• Eh... Usman literally avoids striking exchanges way more than St-Pierre and he also attempts less submissions, so he does play it safer than St-Pierre.

Flawed logic. You're implying Usman is always at a disadvantage in the stand-up. He's taken down guys he could outstrike. Eg. Woodley.

"Against lower caliber fighters. So all irrelevant."

• I love how you keep bringing this up, because if i were to accept this as a fact, then Fedor wouldn't be close to be the greatest or best fighter of all time. The thing is though, that your statement is simply wrong. Colby's best win is a 38 year old Tyron Woodley, whereas GSP has (amongst other top fighters) a win over Shields, who literally beat a younger, superior version of Woodley.

This isn't about Fedor or GOAT. Don't go off on tangents.
I wasn't referring to Colby (although I think he'd destroy all of GSP's opponents). I was talking about Usman.
GSP's win stats are irrelevant to Usman. They're all far below his level.

"How were Silva and Weidman's striking stats when they fought? Who outstruck and KO'd who?"

• Imagine seriously thinking that a match up between a striker who was notorious for having difficulties with wrestlers is even remotely comparable to a match up between two wrestlers... holy shit...

You're not refuting anything. Who did the stats favor? Who won?

"See how irrelevant it is?"

• It's fairly relevant when comparing fighters who both happen to be wrestlers, or at least have great wrestling, forst and foremost.

No, they're not. Usman is bigger and better than anyone GSP fought. His numbers are irrelevant.

I hope you're still trolling, because some of the stuff you've said is straight up embarrassing for someone who claims to be anything more than a casual fan of this sport.

Yes, Conor being better than Nog was a smart statement, lol.

Reply in yellow.

Cheers.

They're not perfect predictors, but they're the best we have. For instance, suppose I say my cousin Vinny has better wrestling, striking, speed, athleticism and so on than either GSP or Usman. The argument against it is going to be "Who has he beat?" with all those amazing skills and abilities. In the end it comes down to someone's record, because everything else is so subjective that people will disagree. You see that regularly on Sherdog. People will disagree about who has better skills, speed, power etc, but the one thing everyone (well, almost everyone) agrees upon is the official record. Its the starting point for all these discussions, because its the only thing that everyone agrees upon.

You think Usman has skills and athleticism GSP was never close to facing. Others on this thread say the opposite. And I'm sure there are guys out there who'll pick some other WW and they they had better skills and athleticism than either GSP or Usman. There's never going to be anything even remotely like agreement on that. There is agreement on their official records though. My cousin Vinny, for all my claims about his amazing skills and athleticism, has no record, so my claim means nothing.

Its easier in something like track and field, or swimming. If you claim Usain Bolt is the fastest 100 meter runner ever, no matter what I say about Jesse Owens or anyone else, you can just point to their best times and the argument is over. Nothing like that exists in MMA, the closest we come is their records.

The best predictor of fights is how fighters match up, as well as timing.

Those 2 >>>>>>>>>>> records, titles, etc. It's been proven countless times. Records do not tell the whole story.

The fact that Anderson struggled with wrestlers and his fight mileage were far better indicators in his fight vs. Weidman than anything in his resume. You look at his record and he was 16-0 in the UFC with plenty of top wins. Why would anyone pick Weidman over him? Well, because of styles and timing.

Records are only good for assessing all time status.

 

[Claude]

Have a great night guys.

Cheers.

 

[Iron Nick]

Wrestling: Usman has 100% TDD. And he's the fighter who's spent less time on his back. (GSP fans be jelly).

Striking: Usman hasn't been dropped. GSP was, several times.

GSP was more flawed than Usman. That's just the truth you don't want to accept.



So GSP has better stand-up than Woodley. That's your point?

Wow, lol.



Don't hate me, hate the facts.



Reply in yellow.

Cheers.




The best predictor of fights is how fighters match up, as well as timing.

Those 2 >>>>>>>>>>> records, titles, etc. It's been proven countless times. Records do not tell the whole story.

The fact that Anderson struggled with wrestlers and his fight mileage were far better indicators in his fight vs. Weidman than anything in his resume. You look at his record and he was 16-0 in the UFC with plenty of top wins. Why would anyone pick Weidman over him? Well, because of styles and timing.

Records are only good for assessing all time status.

You're saying St-Pierre's wins are all below Usman's, which is BS.
Usman's best wins are Colby and Woodley.
Colby's best win is a 38 year old Woodley and Woodley lost to an inferior version of GSP in Rory MacDonald and Jake Shields, a guy St-Pierre beat.

You're trying to discredit St-Pierre all the time by saying he fought smaller opponnents, but simultaneously act like it doesn't matter that Usman's best win is a guy who cuts almost no weight and still was on par with Usman for 90% of the fight.

Usman hasn't mainly not gotten dropped, because a) he plays it safer than GSP, with playing it safe being a thing you criticized GSP for, and b) because the best striker he has fought has half as many losses as he got wins and also because Usman has a slightly better chin.

GSP was not in his prime as a fighter against Serra, although you wish it was that way.
His decision making wasn't as good as later on, back then.

The stats between Silva and Weidman didn't favor anybody, because styles make fights and Silva was slowing down (although he still was close to his prime).
Using Silva vs Weidman as an analogy on why we can't look at stats between Usman and GSP and conclude something with them is as i mentioned flawed though, as Silva and Weidman differ *vastly* in styles, whereas Usman and St-Pierre aren't that different, with both guys biggest single strength being wrestling.

Conor is pound-for-pound a better fighter than Nog, a division like 155, especially as of today, is so far ahead of even the best heavyweight division in the sport, it's comical.
The other guys are better than Nog as well.

 

[ThunderStruck]

Age =/= prime.

He was champion, #1 WW and was in his 5th year of career.

By all means in his prime. Sorry if you're don't like it.

Pretty impressive considering he wasn't in his prime.

 

[Colin]

He easily outwrestled Woodley. The guy Koscheck failed to take down, but did take GSP down.

You need to rewatch some fights

 

[Claude]

You're saying St-Pierre's wins are all below Usman's, which is BS.
Usman's best wins are Colby and Woodley.
Colby's best win is a 38 year old Woodley and Woodley lost to an inferior version of GSP in Rory MacDonald and Jake Shields, a guy St-Pierre beat.

So Tyron beats everyone in GSP's resume but Shields (who won by split decision in a very close fight).
And Colby, who easily dominated Woodley, destroys anyone in GSP's resume.

Sounds about right.

And to make it fair, lets not forget about the losses of GSP's best opponents:

Hughes: Lost to Denis Hallman, Pele and LW Bj Penn.
Hendricks: Lost to Rick Story, Lawler, Thompson, Gastellum
Shields: Lost to Ray Cooper, Akira Kikuchi, Ellenberger, Lombard.
Condit: Lost to Satoru Kitaoka, Pat Healy, Kampmann
Bj Penn: Pulver, Frankie Edgar x3
Bisping: Old Wanderlei, Sonnen, Kennedy, Gastelum.

You're trying to discredit St-Pierre all the time by saying he fought smaller opponnents, but simultaneously act like it doesn't matter that Usman's best win is a guy who cuts almost no weight and still was on par with Usman for 90% of the fight.

Who in GSP's WW resume is bigger than Usman?

Not to mention Usman's wrestling skills, TDD, athleticism and power.

Yes, what GSP did to smaller and less skilled men is irrelevant to Usman.

Usman hasn't mainly not gotten dropped, because a) he plays it safer than GSP, with playing it safe being a thing you criticized GSP for, and b) because the best striker he has fought has half as many losses as he got wins and also because Usman has a slightly better chin.

Bad excuses.

GSP got dropped by Serra, not exactly a good striker. You know how many TKO's Serra had up until that point? Zero. GSP was the only guy he dropped and TKO'd, lol.

Safer than the king of decisions? Doubt it.

GSP was not in his prime as a fighter against Serra, although you wish it was that way.
His decision making wasn't as good as later on, back then.

Yes he was.

He had everything a prime fighter has: Youth, 5 years of experience (which is the same experience Fedor had vs. Cro-Cop or Jones had vs. Gus), he was champion, ranked #1, was in a great win streak, had good momentum.

It's hilarious how much in denial you fanboys are about this loss, although understandable since it's one of the most embarrassing losses in MMA history.

The stats between Silva and Weidman didn't favor anybody, because styles make fights and Silva was slowing down (although he still was close to his prime).
Using Silva vs Weidman as an analogy on why we can't look at stats between Usman and GSP and conclude something with them is as i mentioned flawed though, as Silva and Weidman differ *vastly* in styles, whereas Usman and St-Pierre aren't that different, with both guys biggest single strength being wrestling.

Ah there you go.

Styles > Stats.

You finally learned.

Conor is pound-for-pound a better fighter than Nog, a division like 155, especially as of today, is so far ahead of even the best heavyweight division in the sport, it's comical.
The other guys are better than Nog as well.

A guy who got repeatedly subbed by cans is better than Nog...

Reply in teh red.

Cheese!

Pretty impressive considering he wasn't in his prime.

He wasn't in his prime 5 years into his MMA career? So Fedor was not in his prime vs. Cro-Cop? Jones was not in his prime vs. Gustafsson?

You're looking very silly in order to justify GSP's loss to Serra. Yes, it's a very embarrassing loss. One of the most embarrassing losses ever, if not the most embarrassing. But still it's not worth it. Your credibility should be more important to you.

Think about it, and let me know if you reconsider.

Cheers.

 

[Claude]

You need to rewatch some fights

Good idea.

Any special recommendation? Maybe a Frank Shamrock fight? Love those.