Bernie Sanders takes Greenspan to school

[Jack V Savage]

Do you think that the relocation of manufacturing employment was intended (or allowed) by policymakers to make room for more progressive and current employment forms? I see no problem with incentivizing industry that will supply continued employment to blue collar workers and no problem in condemning a person who had such great influence on shitty policies that pretty clearly had no consideration for the majority of the population.

If he were condemning Greenspan for lax regulation or contributing to the housing bubble (if you had to name one individual who was most responsible, it would likely be him, though there is a lot of "credit" to spread around, and it was worldwide) that would be fine. But that's not what he was saying. And on top of that, maybe it's just a matter of personal taste, but I don't go for the big show of anger in that setting. I don't like when it's done by the "other side," I and don't like it when it's done by people I'm more aligned with.

And no, I don't think that relocation of manufacturing was related to policy, though free trade (not something that Greenspan had any control over) contributed to the acceleration of it. It was something that was inevitably going to happen as we advance as an economy (like the move away from farming employment).

I'm also not sure how Greenspan can be viewed as a helpless, unimportant, or sympathetic character.

I don't view him as any of those things, least of all the last, in a general way. Specifically on the issue of the U.S. move away from manufacturing employment, though, I don't think there was anything he could have done to stop it or anything that he did do to accelerate it. He just basically said what many economists would say--that it's not a big deal in itself. Dislocation can be hard, and obviously wages and job security are big deals to most of us. But those are distinct issues.

 

[OldGoat]

Cant disagree with anything Bernie said here. Bringing manufacturing jobs back to the American people instead of sending them to China. Now who else have I heard talk about that lately, but get chastised for it ? Hmm.

Only a dummy would think Democrats care about bringing jobs back to the USA. It's liberal policy that priced American labor out of competition for many jobs.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

How about how Greenspan was paid off by giant hedge funds.

Why was he paid off with some type of overpaid consulting job. Because he was the errand boy of financial oligarchs. And oaukson and Co put him on their payroll.


Fucking disgusting.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

Only a dummy would think Democrats care about bringing jobs back to the USA. It's liberal policy that priced American labor out of competition for many jobs.

Fail post.

Yeah liberal policy made corporations greedy and use overseas slave labor.

 

[ultramanhyata]

Interesting factoid - Greenspan is married to MSNBC's Andrea Mitchell.

He was also a member of Ayn Rand's personal inner circle and her Collective cult.

 

[ultramanhyata]

Only a dummy would think Democrats care about bringing jobs back to the USA. It's liberal policy that priced American labor out of competition for many jobs.

If it weren't for liberals GM would still be cranking out all of its product in the good, ole USA with part-time American workers earning $8.50 an hour. Fuck the left and its disregard for the working class.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

He was also a member of Ayn Rand's personal inner circle and her Collective cult.

Yup


And he pushed that ideology every step of the way.

And when the system collapsed because those policies only cause sweeping destruction did he finally come out and say his thinking had a "FLAW" in it.

But even then he deflected the blame onto others. This time it took the form of big business under the financial house banner. Than gracefully said "these businesses need stronger regulations"

After years of helping tear tem down.

Alan Greenspan needs to be a victim of the Ferguson riots. That's what he deserves after the crap he brought into play. No scruples and even less morals.

 

[njinsa]

He's wrong with the focus on a particular industry (which seemed to be what he was most upset about). If it were 100 years ago, he'd be decrying the move away from farming employment. We'd do more harm than good by using policy to prop up manufacturing employment. And he's directing his outrage at someone with no ability to do anything about it (kind of reminds me of the "who can I shoot?" scene in the Grapes of Wrath). It was just a big show of emotion. As I said, there were actual things he could have hit Greenspan with, but he didn't go there.

It seems that we understand the overall setting and the speech of Sanders differently. Although he mentioned several specific things, it wasn't these specific things he was focusing on. Some of the specific things were solely mentioned because Greenspan appears to have brought these up sometime during that meeting. However, the purpose of Sanders' speech was to make a statement of Greenspan's overall mindset. It was stated strongly to try speaking to and affecting Greenspan's conscience, so that Greenspan may maybe change his mindset.

It is the overall mindset of a person that determines what kind of decisions a person makes. And based on those decisions of a person, one can also get an insight to a person's mindset, once more and more of these decisions accumulate and point to something. The decisions, supported and promoted policies, and statements of Greenspan pointed to him only being concerned about the wealthy.

One of the effective actions of good leaders is that they help others to think better by affecting and waking up the conscience of others with the hard truth, so as to make them think about what they are doing. This is especially important when those people are acting unjustly and recklessly, so that they can think about what they are doing and change their ways to the better.

 

[speakhandsforme]

Then I won't say where your head is in relation to Jack's privates.

Also, btw, since you've been here for a while, you should know that, if I'm a fan of anyone here, I'm a fan of Zankou. I do think that JVS is smart, but Zankou is literally a political dictionary when I visit this site. I don't even agree with him that much politically either (I think he's fairly ethnocentric). So make those jokes.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

It seems that we understand the overall setting and the speech of Sanders differently. Although he mentioned several specific things, it wasn't these specific things he was focusing on. Some of the specific things were solely mentioned because Greenspan appears to have brought these up sometime during that meeting. However, the purpose of Sanders' speech was to make a statement of Greenspan's overall mindset. It was stated strongly to try speaking to and affecting Greenspan's conscience, so that Greenspan may maybe change his mindset.

It is the overall mindset of a person that determines what kind of decisions a person makes. And based on those decisions of a person, one can also get an insight to a person's mindset, once more and more of these decisions accumulate and point to something. The decisions, supported and promoted policies, and statements of Greenspan pointed to him only being concerned about the wealthy.

One of the effective actions of good leaders is that they help others to think better by affecting and waking up the conscience of others with the hard truth, so as to make them think about what they are doing. This is especially important when those people are acting unjustly and recklessly, so that they can think about what they are doing and change their ways to the better.

Good post.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

Also, btw, since you've been here for a while, you should know that, if I'm a fan of anyone here, I'm a fan of Zankou. I do think that JVS is smart, but Zankou is literally a political dictionary when I visit this site. I don't even agree with him that much politically either (I think he's fairly ethnocentric). So make those jokes.

Zank is the best WR poster imo (there are more than a few really good ones).
They don't post that much anymore, but GermanBJJ and (arghh, I can't think of his name...it was a long foreign sounding name, began with an s..anybody?) were also very high level - maybe even better, but not nearly as prolific.

 

[emefer]

Poor Greenspan. If I wer him I would wander off into the forest where I wouldn't bother anybody.

 

[OldGoat]

If it weren't for liberals GM would still be cranking out all of its product in the good, ole USA with part-time American workers earning $8.50 an hour. Fuck the left and its disregard for the working class.

Now those would be workers are burning shit down and producing nothing.

 

[Islam Imamate]

He's wrong with the focus on a particular industry (which seemed to be what he was most upset about). If it were 100 years ago, he'd be decrying the move away from farming employment. We'd do more harm than good by using policy to prop up manufacturing employment. And he's directing his outrage at someone with no ability to do anything about it (kind of reminds me of the "who can I shoot?" scene in the Grapes of Wrath). It was just a big show of emotion. As I said, there were actual things he could have hit Greenspan with, but he didn't go there.

So you'd say all this talk about bringing manufacturing jobs back to the US is rooted in outdated thinking about the economy? If the manufacturing industry we knew in the 20th century is gone for good what's next? The Silicon Valley companies can produce massive amounts of wealth without much labor and the largest employers like Walmart pay shit wages.

Also, btw, since you've been here for a while, you should know that, if I'm a fan of anyone here, I'm a fan of Zankou. I do think that JVS is smart, but Zankou is literally a political dictionary when I visit this site. I don't even agree with him that much politically either (I think he's fairly ethnocentric). So make those jokes.

Zankou is the p4p best mod, maybe p4p best poster. I grew up Muslim and I've learned more about Islam from him than I did from my parents or at the mosque.

I do see why you say he's ethnocentric but I think its a fairly well thought position he's coming from and in many ways I agree with him there as well.

 

[VulgarSnaps]

The length of Greenspan's term, and impact of his policies have made a lot of people rich, and a great deal more poor.

While Bernie is essentially just going apeshit on him, imagine the opportunity to somehow get in front of whatever you think has been DESTRUCTIVE and be able to speak without any form of real consequence.

It's kind of like he's on the internet.

Anyway; he was fucking right, and more people needed to be screaming about it then and now.

 

[Jack V Savage]

So you'd say all this talk about bringing manufacturing jobs back to the US is rooted in outdated thinking about the economy?

"Outdated" isn't le mot juste there, IMO, but I don't think we should try to prop up employment in any particular industry (I can support industry-specific bailouts in harsh cyclical downturns, but that's different from propping up an industry with a long-term down trend).

If the manufacturing industry we knew in the 20th century is gone for good what's next? The Silicon Valley companies can produce massive amounts of wealth without much labor and the largest employers like Walmart pay shit wages.

I don't know what's next, exactly, but there's nothing magical about manufacturing employment. I think we should target full employment very aggressively (much moreso than we actually have been), but within the economy, if there's a shortage of workers in a field, salaries will rise, more people will go into it, and that will balance; and if there's a surplus, salaries will fall and people will move away from it. We should have a strong safety net to manage the displacement and so forth, but that general self-regulating process is going to lead to better results for everyone than attempting to stop the tide.

I think the three things people miss about manufacturing employment are that it didn't require a lot of education, it paid relatively well, and it provided a lot of job security, but that's a result of it being a strong industry with a strong union culture. If we want to replicate that, we shouldn't try to bring manufacturing back as much as we should try to encourage unionization, a strong economy, and generally a better bargaining position for workers (and attempt to shift national income to workers and away from capital owners).

 

[IIIIIIII]

Cant disagree with anything Bernie said here. Bringing manufacturing jobs back to the American people instead of sending them to China. Now who else have I heard talk about that lately, but get chastised for it ? Hmm.

if these same manufacturing jobs can be made by people making 10% or less the amount of money it would take to pay an american, then why would any company want to have americans perform these jobs?

americans need to realize that they need to move beyond these, "simple" occupations, and strive to educate themselves in occupations where there is little-to-no competition in being hired for jobs. these are engineering jobs, technology jobs, and other, "higher education" jobs, that many americans are losing to other countries, such as india, china, and japan, where they are educating themselves in these types of jobs, and where americans are falling behind.

it's called capitalism. the only color that matters is green. until americans figure this out, they will continue to lose out to others.

 

[Jack V Savage]

americans need to realize that they need to move beyond these, "simple" occupations, and strive to educate themselves in occupations where there is little-to-no competition in being hired for jobs. these are engineering jobs, technology jobs, and other, "higher education" jobs, that many americans are losing to other countries, such as india, china, and japan, where they are educating themselves in these types of jobs, and where americans are falling behind.

That's a separate issue. IMO, what you're saying is equivalent to coming into a discussion about the war on drugs and saying, "Americans need to realize that if they just don't buy, sell, or use drugs, there's no problem." Sure, but we're talking about policy. Sanders is misguided, IMO, but he's trying to create better institutions, which isn't the same as advising people about how to work within the institutions we have.

 

[2GunTommy]

Obviously no politician would say such a thing directly. Given the side of the aisle the guy is on I am going to assume that he is for markets over regulation and thus that would be the only possible outcome if the jobs actually return.

But I guess we'll learn more as his specific policy ideas are unveiled.

(We are talking about Trump, right??)

Yup Im not so sure what side of the aisle he is on with all issues yet though.
Might be closer to the center on some issues than we might expect.

Laughable. He just did it becayse it made him money, but now he cares about the American people so much that he will pass legislation to force a business practice he has never done.

That is some high level delusion.

Is there a chance that because he has been in the business world participating in those practices for so long thats how he knows things need to change. Can we blame him for being a capitalist and playing by the rules laid out for him ? ie not being given any incentives to manufacture in the US. Maybe he wants to create a better system that actually benefits the people? I know im wishful thinking here but hey, who knows.

It's not just what you say, but how you say it.

Ehhh just speak the truth. At this point I care not how tactfully its said.

Only a dummy would think Democrats care about bringing jobs back to the USA. It's liberal policy that priced American labor out of competition for many jobs.

Agreed, but i feel like Bernie is one of those guys that actually might be making decisions based on what he thinks is good for the American people on this issue.

If it weren't for liberals GM would still be cranking out all of its product in the good, ole USA with part-time American workers earning $8.50 an hour. Fuck the left and its disregard for the working class.

Now those would be workers are burning shit down and producing nothing.

Well you can thank NAFTA for that. Soon to be joined by its steroid infused jacked up bro the TPP.

 

[IIIIIIII]

That's a separate issue. IMO, what you're saying is equivalent to coming into a discussion about the war on drugs and saying, "Americans need to realize that if they just don't buy, sell, or use drugs, there's no problem." Sure, but we're talking about policy. Sanders is misguided, IMO, but he's trying to create better institutions, which isn't the same as advising people about how to work within the institutions we have.

well, couldn't you call both issues, "policies"? advising someone is still advising someone. you don't purchase something, you remove the market. you educate yourself, you find employment. you're still instructing people on how to reach their means.

yes, creating institutions which gives folks the education to compete for these jobs, which i take it is your point (?), makes sense. i agree with that. if that isn't what you meant, then please correct me.