Being a well rounded fighter is great until you run into a highly specialized offensive juggernaut who has good defense

[markg171]

Who has Volk subbed that is Mitchell level on the ground ……I feel I’m one of the few that watched Topuria fights before the ufc ….hes a monster on the ground

Subbing a guy after you beat the ever living fuck out of them with your fists isn't an indication of grappling skill.

 

[maximus__]

If you haven't heard, topuria is now the most well rounded fighter ever, despite only fighting one truly notable opponent and using 90 percent boxing in his ufc fights.

The guy is great at what he does, but the hyperbole about how well rounded he is is getting out of control. Topuria still has a lot he needs to prove in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong he looks great offensively in the wrestling outside the UFC, but plenty of guys on the regional scene do. In the end he got the finish and we do have the Bryce fight grappling wise, but people are crazy. That sort of power is a game changer, but he was also open coming in for that finish and has been caught before with poor defence. Does everyone forget Herbert just because he then went and finished him? Ilia has been caught, he is just fresher and survived it, eventually he also won't.

It's like people saying Weidman was the greatest MW ever at one point and now he barely makes it into the top 5 after 3 defences.

 

[markg171]

And being specialized is all good until you have a guy well rounded enough to negate your strength and be much better than your weakness.

There's a reason why most strikers work on their TDD and getting back up instead of trying to sub someone from their back. If they're not on the ground in the first place they're still in their realm.

Being well rounded doesn't mean you're better than your opponent at the area they're going to try and fight you at.

 

[Edward Henry Greb]

That or exiting the pocket with your chin up against a counter puncher with massive power won't pay off. Take your pick, I guess.

That's exactly right.

Volk's chin was up the entire time, backing straight up.

It's literally the recipe for what happened against a tight, tactical, powerful boxer/puncher.

 

[fortheo]

Don't get me wrong he looks great offensively in the wrestling outside the UFC, but plenty of guys on the regional scene do. In the end he got the finish and we do have the Bryce fight grappling wise, but people are crazy. That sort of power is a game changer, but he was also open coming in for that finish and has been caught before with poor defence. Does everyone forget Herbert just because he then went and finished him? Ilia has been caught, he is just fresher and survived it, eventually he also won't.

It's like people saying Weidman was the greatest MW ever at one point and now he barely makes it into the top 5 after 3 defences.

Yeah, but in the Bryce fight he accepted being on his back and didn't even try to get up. He only ragdolled bryce after rocking him and knocking him down. I feel like there's still a lot of unknowns in regards to how Illia's grappling holds up against high level fighters in his division, especially his cardio while grappling. I was hoping volk would test him there, pretty sure he said he would, but he got knocked silly first. Oh well.

The evloev fight will answer some questions if it ever happens.

 

[Psilo82]

Not as well rounded as volk. Islam probably would have taken down and subbed Topuria. And I think Volk has better offensive wrestling than Topuria as well

Volk has more experience and maybe he’s better at being busy and landing more point scoring strikes. Ilia is better than volk everywhere I don’t know what you’ve been watching.

 

[maximus__]

Yeah, but in the Bryce fight he accepted being on his back and didn't even try to get up. He only ragdolled bryce after rocking him and knocking him down. I feel like there's still a lot of unknowns in regards to how Illia's grappling holds up against high level fighters in his division, especially his cardio while grappling. I was hoping volk would test him there, pretty sure he said he would, but he got knocked silly first. Oh well.

The evloev fight will answer some questions if it ever happens.

Yeah it seems like the plan was to strike for the first two rounds then go into the grappling from his interview. I think it was a poor choice to be honest. Volk was doing well against Islam on the wall in the second fight even. I think he has under-utilised a massive threat and it cost him this fight.

Not sold on Ilia yet. He is a great finisher and fought through the Herbert headkick, but he is the kind of guy to get caught by Ortega in a sub or Yair via a crazy kick. Both hands were down as he was going in to finish Volk.

 

[Koya]

Being an offensive juggernaut with good defense is supposed to be the opposite of well rounded ? In which definition lol ?

 

[PeterGriffin]

Pursuing greatness is a waste of time and talent?

Absolutely not, I suppose I could have phrased it better.

If Ilia reigns supreme over the next few years at FW, he will certainly accomplish a lot and could go down as an all-time great. It will not be wasted talent. What I meant was... if he dispatches Volk and Holloway in a timely (say 1 year) and emphatic fashion and with little difficulty, it will only serve to show that he is by far and away the most dominant featherweight.

It's the year or two after that while the division sorts itself out, he will be left waiting and racking up wins not necessarily over contenders, just FW's with a name that's not already on his resume... similar to some of the asterisks and people's complaints over Silva's or Jones' records. Yes, obviously great and talented, no doubt about it.

That being said, legacy wise... he rematches Volk and knocks off Holloway. Really, what's left? Ortega and Evloev? I don't see either fighter being that difficult to put away.

Alternatively, he wouldn't even need to put on much weight for 155lbs, and there are some wicked fights to be had there, but not for very long. Oliveira, Gathje, Chandler, Poirier are all 34 or better and would be awesome fights.

I think in MMA the thing that makes champs fight 2 times per year max, more often less is two main things:
1. weight cutting. Fighters that get no damage like Topuria in this fight need time to recover just from the dehydration and all the toll it takes on their body. If the UFC eliminated the dehydrating they could fight more often. This could be accomplished by simply implementing six weight checks. 6 weeks out, 3 weeks out and day of the fight have scheduled weigh ins and 3 random weigh ins. Weight classes are 10lb ranges with the 1lb allowance. If a fighter misses a weight check give them 10% fine. fighters will choose the weight class they can maintain and will be forced to keep in fight shape.

2. Fighters and especially champions make more from the "Opportunities" outside of fighting because they are a UFC fighter/Champion then they do for the actual fighting. If fighters were signed and knew they didn't have to cut weight and could fight 3x per year knowing they will make $X for the year rather then scraping by and begging for scraps it would be better IMO.

I have long been in favour of morning/day-of weigh-ins. The fight's at 9pm? Have them weigh in at 9am or noon. You could even have them weigh in again as they are stripping down to enter the octagon and if they are more than 10 lbs (a fair difference) over their weigh-in weight, fine them.

Sure, fighters will still re-hydrate to gain some weight back, but I believe it will also reduce the number of divisional weight bullies and lead to healthier weight cutting in the long run. I suspect many fighters will end up having to change divisions as a result, but (in my opinion), so be it. If a fighter knows he can re-gain 30lbs in 24 hours etc, they 100% will go for it and push the cut to the extreme limit. They are probably the fiercest competitors of any sport on the planet and you can be damn sure they absolutely will try to capitalize on any single advantage they can get.

As much as I do NOT want more divisions (such as creating a 165lb division and moving WW to 175lb) or creating a HW/SHW split... if that became a necessary end result to stop the fighters from making these big cuts and help balance the size disparities between fighters then I could could live with that.

I know we are basically saying the same thing, but instead of the UFC trying to enforce the situation by having the multiple weigh-ins leading up to the fights, it puts the onus and responsibilty on the fighter, his coaches and the management for said fighter. That way, if the fighter fucks up and misses weight, they have no one to blame but themselves. In my opinion, I believe it's the rehydration that does more to create the size disparity and imbalance between fighters, and not the actual routine of the cut.

If fighters are straining their body and systems starting massive cuts 6 weeks out, and it's a grueling 6 week cut process, and then they gorge and do whatever they can to regain that weight... that is brutal on the body, and it will certainly take its toll over time. I understand completely that these guys are machines and really are exceptional athletes, but MMA is still a fairly young sport. When we start seeing how former fighters' health conditions are in their 50's, 60's, 70's etc, then will they be able to figure out exactly what toll that massive weight cutting leads to on the body's overall health (joints, organs and brains etc).

 

[blaseblase]

Absolutely not, I suppose I could have phrased it better.

If Ilia reigns supreme over the next few years at FW, he will certainly accomplish a lot and could go down as an all-time great. It will not be wasted talent. What I meant was... if he dispatches Volk and Holloway in a timely (say 1 year) and emphatic fashion and with little difficulty, it will only serve to show that he is by far and away the most dominant featherweight.

It's the year or two after that while the division sorts itself out, he will be left waiting and racking up wins not necessarily over contenders, just FW's with a name that's not already on his resume... similar to some of the asterisks and people's complaints over Silva's or Jones' records. Yes, obviously great and talented, no doubt about it.

That being said, legacy wise... he rematches Volk and knocks off Holloway. Really, what's left? Ortega and Evloev? I don't see either fighter being that difficult to put away.

Alternatively, he wouldn't even need to put on much weight for 155lbs, and there are some wicked fights to be had there, but not for very long. Oliveira, Gathje, Chandler, Poirier are all 34 or better and would be awesome fights.

What's left is to be a dominant champion and divisional great. 1-2 defenses doesn't accomplish that. That's the accomplishment of a transitional champion. The GOATs are all fighters who racked up title defenses. Does he only want to go down as the 4th best FW champion?

 

[PeterGriffin]

What's left is to be a dominant champion and divisional great. 1-2 defenses doesn't accomplish that. That's the accomplishment of a transitional champion. The GOATs are all fighters who racked up title defenses. Does he only want to go down as the 4th best FW champion?

If he did rematch and smoke Volk a second time, and then dominated and put away Holloway, who is also in consideration as an all-time great FW... how would that NOT automatically put Topuria in contention as a 145 GOAT?

My point was, instead of continuing to sit around and beat up FW cans for PPV bonus money, or going to 155lbs and putting on barnburners against the fan favourite household names while 145 sorts itself out. I know what my choice would be.

As a fighter, what you do if the roles were reversed? Beat up a bunch of 8th graders for extra dollars, or test your mettle against your real peers for glory? Still getting paid either way, but only one of those options will really endear you to the fight fans.

 

[PeterGriffin]

Also, I love the rabbit hole the internet provides everyone. First I double checked both Volk's and Holloway's records on wikipedia, then found out Holloway was only 32 and already divorced and remarried, then saw a pic of Holloway's new wife.

God damn bro.

 

[thewhiterooster]

styles do make fights

 

[nostradumbass]

What defense rendered Volk's grappling a non factor? Volk didn't attempt to grapple, and didn't really look good striking but was still landing more on the feet. Volk was the oldest champ below 155, and just looked a little slower and a little unsure of himself, backing up with his chin out after landing, and specifically didn't take the opportunity to change levels and initiate a grappling exchange when he backed into the fence.

 

[Wonderfight]

He didn’t really shut him down, he was being beaten on the feet for the most part. But yeah precise, fast and strong is a deadly combination. Topuria just needs less to do what he does.

 

[r-harper-1]

Subbing a guy after you beat the ever living fuck out of them with your fists isn't an indication of grappling skill.

Yes….he locked that arm triangle in quick and it was tight

 

[r-harper-1]

You don;t think Volk was winning the first round and looking good prior to the knockout? The two clean shots he took were the ones that put him down, but that bodykick/high kick game had Ilia looking worried at the start there. He was wearing visible damage and didn;t come out of that fight with nothing. If you hadn't seen the fight, Volk looked fresh and Ilia was wearing facial damage.

All credit to Ilia for adjusting and getting him out of there how he did, but if that fight continued how it was and Ilia didn't get the KO, he was on his way to comfortably losing a decision. I will give both fighters credit where it's due.

Yeah Volk can wrestle. I would like to see him go to it more. I never said he was out wrestling him, I would just like to see him mix it in if he chooses to keep fighting. His striking has become kinda predictable and he has been caught in the same sort of way two times now as he exits exchanges towards the cage. He was able to hang with Islam in the wrestling as the fight went on and has shown if he gets the fight there he can do damage and finish. Why not mix that in?

Volk win a close first round … Topuria landed a few big shots himself including a big leg kick ….Topuria didn’t come for a decision…..he was setting traps and took volk out with much effort…..Wouldnt say he was on his way to a decision when then fight wasn’t even half over

 

[r-harper-1]

If you haven't heard, topuria is now the most well rounded fighter ever, despite only fighting one truly notable opponent and using 90 percent boxing in his ufc fights.

The guy is great at what he does, but the hyperbole about how well rounded he is is getting out of control. Topuria still has a lot he needs to prove in my opinion.

His subs before joining the ufc were lethal…..Who has Volk subbed? ….wrestling is tiring ….if Topuria can out box everyone….its the smarter more entertaining rout to victory

 

[kingmob6]

Why bring Islam into the equation? Topuria is the FW champion. Are all FWs now measured by how they do against the LW champion?

to be honest, Topuria said there is no one to challenge him at FW and LW

 

[markg171]

Yes….he locked that arm triangle in quick and it was tight

And Bryce's ability to defend it and grapple back was obviously affected by getting knocked down and beaten badly on for the minute beforehand.

This isn't hard. Literally just rewatch the first round where Bryce took Ilia down and outgrappled him for the rest of the round.

His subs before joining the ufc were lethal…..Who has Volk subbed?

Not being subbed by Ortega and Islam rather proved that Volk is a great grappler himself.