Bagwork critique

[Discipulus]

That is my feeling as well.

But you have a lot of guys in Germany\Europe who fight successfully based on a style which is IMO less restrictive in terms of having good reflexes. In certain situations they can't react perfectly like Frazier or Montell Griffin or JT, but at least they don't get hit flush while pretending that they can.

I think that if you are not exceptionally gifted fighter, you will be more successful if you try and utilize every type of defense - arms, head movement and footwork.

What do you think ?

My lack of incredible reflexes and speed is exactly why I keep my field of vision clear and my head far from the opponent. It's all about distance.

 

[sourdiesel209]

lol at defending punches without hands up not being reliant on physical features... timing is based on your reflexes too, if you cant read your opponent fast enuff you cant react fast enuff... I think your just limiting your game by ditching at least knowing how to use hands up properly, there are more uses to it than just as a last resort when your hurt, you can use it to regain an advantageous position if your momentarily outpositioned, etc.

but of course this is for hobby and losing weight, right? its not like you wanna be world champion, you can fight like that shaolin monk Yi long if thats fun for you, watch out with that brain dmg tho, you dont wanna "ignore" to many punches...

 

[Sinister]

Defending punches without the use of hands isn't SOLELY based on reflexes and timing...both are part of it, both should be trained-up, no one suggested otherwise. Once again, we're not talking about standing stock-still and doing nothing UNTIL an opponent tries to hit. That's a purely reactionary scenario that is entirely based on sight reflex. Ever hear of giving your opponent a moving target and baiting them to throw where you want? That's also a valid form of defense that you don't need to be blinding fast to pull off.

P.S. - There are plenty of fighters who fought with high tight guards that also still ended up with brain damage.

 

[Discipulus]

Looking good in those short shorts man, Vale Tudo tighty whiteys next?

Only major point i notice was your tempo. You fell into maintaing the same beat all the way through. You may or may not have the fastest of hands, but it would have been nice to see you mix up the speed now and again. I had the video on in the back ground and you can hear the beat being tapped out on the bag, pop,pops,shuffle,pop pop,pop,pause,pop.
Good stuff though man

I'm thinking bikini bottoms will be my next step. Maybe neon green.

That's a great tip with the tempo. I think the limited space I was working in contributed somewhat to my rather repetitive pace, but I know I also have a tendency to just do the same thing over and over, and then throw out one wacky technique or something when I think of it. Overall, I think I need to improve my ability to imagine the bag as an opponent, and then practice trying to throw that opponent off with feints, defense, and a more varied attack.

First, congratulations for losing all that weight, I was at 270 once as a teenager so I know what kind of a change that is, and what is required to make such a change.
As for the bag work, I like how you initiate all your movement with your hips. Also, I like how you pivot to the left and shoot all of the lead hand punches while pivoting. I especially like the lead hook, short, compact, sneaky. I also like that rear UP with hip switching (cuban UP from the other thread), especially when you follow it with the left hook. I watched that video of Sinister working with Arni on the pads, it was great breakdown of the moves, will begin to incorporate it my own training. One thing I really didn't like (and it is because I do the same mistake sometimes), is the step to the right with the lead hand extended and controlling the bag/opponent. I like that move but IMO your step is too big and kinda lazy, and is leaving your body open for too long. But if it is intentionally done like that (exaggerated) for the purpose of learning, I understand it. Other thing that was on my mind was that you said you are a pressure fighter, but being a smaller heavyweight I would like to see more defense variation (high guard, ducking...) and attacking off of those defensive moves. I understand that you weren't focusing on that, but me being a heavyweight, I would like to see a video of you punching the heavybag like you would fight in the ring. Anyway, nice work, you should share more videos!

Thanks for the kind words, man. I'm pretty proud of my hook; that's a punch that I've put a lot of effort into, and one that suits my body's natural tendencies quite well. It's very satisfying to sit back onto the rear hip and feel the weight of your body slam into the bag.

As for that right pivot, it's something I'm working on now. Being externally rotated, like yourself, I have trouble stepping in the right direction to that side, so I end up taking too big of a step and putting myself too far away from the bag. I do a round or two of shadowboxing with just movement at the start of every training session, so hopefully that will start to improve in practice.

I've already addressed the high guard thing, but I definitely need more variety of defense. I think I look my best when I get low, especially when I move forward off of those slips and rolls, so I'm going to try to incorporate that more as a means of closing the distance.

I can't really describe it, but like... my ears pricked up or my eyebrows raised or my mouth started watering in a really non gay way when I saw that right hand. I'm like, "THERE! NOW!"

This sounds crazy, but you're over committing your hips. The last time I saw you, your hand was just hanging out and I remember I made a little graphic about how much your hand dropped while you were waiting for your hips to come back around. That was part of what I saw good, was that this time your hand was coming much more straight back.
***I know we just had a Naudi thread on the T spine that we all groaned about, but some MORE t spine twist could get you to where you need to be without AS MUCH hip movement****
Although you're very balanced unto yourself, being as far back as you are, you're not ready to take a punch without a compensatory step afterwards.... assuming you've got the wits to know where to put your foot after eating such a flat punch. It's really accentuated by the fact that your left hand is not up. If there was one point in time in which people can't reactive put their hands up... it's while they're punching. I would try to draw that right hand out constantly and ideally throw a dead straight right down your right just because the blow would be so telling, and if it did in fact force you to step... you now have no counter punch. It's a free pass.

Your punch could be done WAY before that, you're actually slowing your punch down to give your hips time to come around.

And I woud draw out your counter right and drop a hook over the top. :wink:

I don't think I'm as directly over my right foot as you think I am when I throw that right hand. It's generally under me, which is good the way I see it, but I'm not so directly over it that I'd have to step back to absorb a counter. In fact, I think it's in more or less the perfect position to be close enough to throw the hook after the right hand, or slip a counter right to the left and move forward to counter.

There is definitely room for a greater variety of right hands, though. Quick ones to set up the left, as well as the heavier ones I was throwing.

for gods sake put those hands up!!!

No matter what I can't seem to keep these things at my damn eyebrows! Maybe... maybe you could... show me how?

 

[Discipulus]

lol at defending punches without hands up not being reliant on physical features... timing is based on your reflexes too, if you cant read your opponent fast enuff you cant react fast enuff... I think your just limiting your game by ditching at least knowing how to use hands up properly, there are more uses to it than just as a last resort when your hurt, you can use it to regain an advantageous position if your momentarily outpositioned, etc.

but of course this is for hobby and losing weight, right? its not like you wanna be world champion, you can fight like that shaolin monk Yi long if thats fun for you, watch out with that brain dmg tho, you dont wanna "ignore" to many punches...

I know how to put my hands up. I've said a few times already, but I'm forced to do just that frequently in sparring, because I'm still learning to make my preferred style work, and I don't have anyone here to help me along in training.

And if I can't react to my opponent fast enough, then I'm going to get my ass kicked regardless of where I hold my hands. That's how fighting works. I don't see how holding my hands at my forehead would make a guy who is admittedly better than me stop hitting me when and wherever he wants to. In fact, it'd be much more practical to convince him that he's NOT better than me, and you can't do that by absorbing his shots on your gloves. You can only do that by beating him up.

 

[a guy]

The fact you have fighters that win with you style is awesome and the perfect justification. The fact guys win with hands up to defend is justification for them. Their is no right answer, just opinions. Disco wanted peoples critique on this video and that's what he got.

I think Disco's answer was perfect, I want to learn to box with my hands down. That's it, end of. Win or lose that's what he wants to do, he's not saying everybody should but he wants to.

This exactly, you nailed it. Trying to discredit him for what he's doing would be like him trying to discredit everyone else for what they're doing. Plus it's a personal choice, not him saying it's the best choice but that it's the best for HIM.

 

[sourdiesel209]

Defending punches without the use of hands isn't SOLELY based on reflexes and timing...both are part of it, both should be trained-up, no one suggested otherwise. Once again, we're not talking about standing stock-still and doing nothing UNTIL an opponent tries to hit. That's a purely reactionary scenario that is entirely based on sight reflex. Ever hear of giving your opponent a moving target and baiting them to throw where you want? That's also a valid form of defense that you don't need to be blinding fast to pull off.

P.S. - There are plenty of fighters who fought with high tight guards that also still ended up with brain damage.

yeah Im not talking about standing still dodging everything Matrix style either, but sometimes you fight pressure fighters that will cut off the ring and force you into medium and close range where having your hands up while punching will save u in exchanges while going momentarily into a shell can give you valuable seconds to pivot out. Assuming that your fighters or anyone that practices your style will never get out positioned where he could use a high guard is a bit dangerous, I thought you always said to train for competent opponents (that know how to cut the ring)...

 

[Sinister]

That is my feeling as well.

But you have a lot of guys in Germany\Europe who fight successfully based on a style which is IMO less restrictive in terms of having good reflexes. In certain situations they can't react perfectly like Frazier or Montell Griffin or JT, but at least they don't get hit flush while pretending that they can.

I think that if you are not exceptionally gifted fighter, you will be more successful if you try and utilize every type of defense - arms, head movement and footwork.

What do you think ?

I think it depends on the definition of "exceptionally gifted"...everyone's gifts are different, and what their gifts are should idealistically be utilized in relation to what they want/prefer to do. Not every fighter even can be a muscular, fast, "dynamic" black dude, or a durable Mexican with a ton of cardio. But they are also going to want to be what they want, if its possible, they should be.

 

[sourdiesel209]

And if I can't react to my opponent fast enough, then I'm going to get my ass kicked regardless of where I hold my hands. That's how fighting works. I don't see how holding my hands at my forehead would make a guy who is admittedly better than me stop hitting me when and wherever he wants to. In fact, it'd be much more practical to convince him that he's NOT better than me, and you can't do that by absorbing his shots on your gloves. You can only do that by beating him up.

This is not entirely true. Having your hands up in a exchange at middle range could save you from a blow that you couldnt dodge fast enough otherwise, its like a passive defense. Its like hiding your chin with your shoulders while throwing straight punches... Also, I dunno if you have sparred someone with a good high guard before, but it can be incredible frustrating to crack sometimes, pulling it at the right time can disrupt their offensive very much...

 

[Sinister]

yeah Im not talking about standing still dodging everything Matrix style either, but sometimes you fight pressure fighters that will cut off the ring and force you into medium and close range where having your hands up while punching will save u in exchanges while going momentarily into a shell can give you valuable seconds to pivot out. Assuming that your fighters or anyone that practices your style will never get out positioned where he could use a high guard is a bit dangerous, I thought you always said to train for competent opponents (that know how to cut the ring)...

I did say, that, and noting I've said in this thread goes against that.

 

[shpboris]

Pryor was fast and did have great timing, but neither of those allowed him to beat Arguello. Arguello was a master, and he beat the shit out of plenty of fast guys in his time. Pryor, though, had absolutely relentless pressure, both mentally and physically. You'll notice that, from the very beginning of that fight, Arguello learns that he's not allowed to miss, because if he does Pryor will immediatley punish him. And if he's not allowed to miss, he needs to be very careful about picking his shots, which almost instantaneously assures that Pryor will have the far greater volume of punches. Pryor is one of the best ever when it comes to using defense, even better than Frazier, and his mentality of "every movement sets up a punch" is what made him so dangerous.

Of course his speed and timing contributed to his overall game in a big way, but you simply can't be a great fighter without a certain level of athleticism.

I'll say again, I find the idea that I should work out of a high guard more often strange, both for my style and my build. If my opponent sees me holding my hands up, he can clearly see that I'm not punching, which means that he can try to punch me. Particularly as a big, slow guy, I really don't want to give the impression of a stationary, defensive target. Part of being a pressure fighter is always looking like you're ready to throw back and come forward, and a high guard just doesn't give that impression.

I actually think that not using a high guard is kind of more clean way to win fights.
It is closer to a real fight , not depends on boxing gloves and just more spectacular.
The only question IMO is if it is suitable for your normal, not super athletic guy.

I just disagree that "high guard just doesn't give that impression". Take for example Arslan - quite known fighter from Germany who fought for a title against Marco Huck and was robbed. He is not very fast, not exceptional reflexes, not very tall. But he is very strong phisycally, has a good punch and very tough. Based on his strengths he uses high guard as primary defense in order to come close where he does his best work. And he puts very good pressure on the opponents. Not very exciting style, nothing too interesting - but based on his strengths I think it was a very wise choice for him.

Watch him put pressure:

[YT]_aZoXBWLTyI[/YT]


Anyway, I understand why you want to master a style that doesn't rely on a high guard and hope it works well for you !

 

[Sinister]

Arthur Abraham always looked fairly stationary, though. But he was as tough as a tank and had a punch like an 8lb gun. So even though he lacked in evasive movement, walking guys down from behind his arms, waiting for them to tire out or make a big mistake, then dropping bombs on them worked out very well.

 

[shpboris]

Yes, not very exciting style, but works well for guys with those strengths.

Looks like their trainer in Germany (Uli Vegner) teaches all his guys this style. Even Alekseev, great technician and former russian olympician started to fight like Abraham instead of his normal "active lead hand, constant in-out" soviet style. In his case the results were not good at all ...

 

[a guy]

I know this conversation is in a boxing context but I'd just like to point out that basically every MMA fighter ever drops their hands in striking exchanges, if they don't keep them low to start.

Yea, yea, the striking in MMA sucks. But they CAN'T rely on blocking to the same extent, so they don't. Discipulus just doesn't want to, and there's clear evidence that his approach is viable and he's given reasons for why it's beneficial to his style, plus HE'S SAID 100 TIMES HE USES A HIGH GUARD WHEN HE HAS TO. I don't see the issue, beyond a "different=wrong" reaction.

 

[EndlessCritic]

I know this conversation is in a boxing context but I'd just like to point out that basically every MMA fighter ever drops their hands in striking exchanges, if they don't keep them low to start.

Definitely not an over-generalization. Nope.

 

[a guy]

Definitely not an over-generalization. Nope.

Nope, as you can tell by the totally legit phrase "basically every MMA fighter ever" there is zero hyperbole in my post.

Seriously though, go ahead and find MMA fighters who keep their hands at at least chin level (high enough to passively block a stray punch) for most of a fight or for the majority of exchanges. That or ones who rely primarily on blocking. You'll find a few of course, but now find some who are actually in the top 10.

Pro fighters in ALL combat sports drop their hands in exchanges all the time. The point here is that it's not wrong to do so any more than it's wrong to keep your hands up, there are advantages and ways to neutralize the disadvantages.

 

[shpboris]

I know this conversation is in a boxing context but I'd just like to point out that basically every MMA fighter ever drops their hands in striking exchanges, if they don't keep them low to start.

Yea, yea, the striking in MMA sucks. But they CAN'T rely on blocking to the same extent, so they don't. Discipulus just doesn't want to, and there's clear evidence that his approach is viable and he's given reasons for why it's beneficial to his style, plus HE'S SAID 100 TIMES HE USES A HIGH GUARD WHEN HE HAS TO. I don't see the issue, beyond a "different=wrong" reaction.

Out of MMA fighters that were quite successful with blocking I remember Rampage, Jim Miller and Sean Sherk. But yes, blocking in MMA looks much more difficult to use.

Probably, just raising the hands up and walking the opponent down like in the video that I posted above is not possible at all with small gloves. Do you have an examples of something like that in MMA context ?

 

[apizur**]

And I woud draw out your counter right and drop a hook over the top. :wink:

I don't think I'm as directly over my right foot as you think I am when I throw that right hand. It's generally under me, which is good the way I see it, but I'm not so directly over it that I'd have to step back to absorb a counter. In fact, I think it's in more or less the perfect position to be close enough to throw the hook after the right hand, or slip a counter right to the left and move forward to counter.

There is definitely room for a greater variety of right hands, though. Quick ones to set up the left, as well as the heavier ones I was throwing.

You wouldn't though, I'd be in and out before you got back around because you wait for your hip to lead your punches. On top of the step point, if you were forced to step because you're so sat back there wouldn't be a counter-anything. Don't get gassed up by Sinister trying to argue with everyone about how your shit is fine. You're not a pro, we know you're not a pro, you know you're not a pro, and right now you're just taking observations from other fighters. You could put a little more shift on to the front leg when you throw the right, and not bring the hip around as much as you are.
I think your balance is good and you're getting full ROM on your strikes, but not every punch requires K.O. ROM, especially when it's going to stick you out of position for longer than necessary. A lesson I've learned the hard way. Other than that everything looked to be consistent IMO.

 

[a guy]

Out of MMA fighters that were quite successful with blocking I remember Rampage, Jim Miller and Sean Sherk. But yes, blocking in MMA looks much more difficult to use.

Probably, just raising the hands up and walking the opponent down like in the video that I posted above is not possible at all with small gloves. Do you have an examples of something like that in MMA context ?

And all three of those guys can arguably attribute more of their success to grappling than to striking.

It might be possible but it's probably taking the path of most resistance. There are so many things that can be done to stop that. For example, a few taps to pin the guard and it's a free take down. There are kicks to get past. It's legal to literally grab the opponent's hands and manipulate them. A fighter with decent punch selection can find cracks in that type of approach with small gloves very quickly.

Walking someone down in MMA is definitely more about the mental pressure Discipulus explains. Look at Cain, Nelson, Rousey, Brown, all the best pressure fighters in MMA rely more on threats than on blocks to come forward and force the opponent backward.

 

[EndlessCritic]

Seriously though, go ahead and find MMA fighters who keep their hands at at least chin level (high enough to passively block a stray punch) for most of a fight or for the majority of exchanges. That or ones who rely primarily on blocking. You'll find a few of course, but now find some who are actually in the top 10.

Saffiedine, Cariaso...