Bagwork critique

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by Discipulus, Jun 3, 2014.

  1. Discipulus

    Discipulus Black Belt

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    Seems like it's been ages since I posted some of my work around here, so here we go.

    First things first: yes, I am training in boxer shorts. This is what my obsession with short trunks has led me to. Don't follow in my footsteps, young ones.

    Second, I think this is the first most of you will have seen of me since, with Luis' help, I lost a lot of weight. It's possible that, if I really managed my diet closely, I could get down to cruiser, but for the moment I'm comfortable just staying within the general guidelines and walking around at 220 (I started at 260ish). A lot of things have improved for me since dropping some of that weight, so I encourage all the Roy Nelsons out there to suck it up and pay attention to what you eat. It really is worth it.

    Third, I'm pretty pleased with this. I decided to record something about twenty minutes after my full workout ended, and forgot to set a round timer, but you know how long a round feels when you're in the midst of it, so by the time I let myself look, five minutes had passed.

    I start the round working on active lead hand work--jabs, long left hooks, and intercepting hooks, all while practicing catching with my right hand and keeping it in a defensive position (you can't really see my gloves too well in this light, sorry). Toward the end of the round I practice moving in behind that jab, and working on the inside, using shoulder bumps and pivots to find space in close.

    Any criticisms or comments are quite welcome. Tear me apart, Sherdoggers.

     
  2. crossFTW

    crossFTW Orange Belt

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    Holy shit! Stage 2 evolution complete!
    Your looking way better, everything looks muuuch more coordinated and athletic (honestly your previous videos lacked this even though you had good technique), do you think the weight was hindering you?
    Also how tall are you and have you been working with Sin in person or online?
    Congrats on the body transformation dude.
    edit: also, THOSE SHORTS MAN WHAT THE HELL!
     
  3. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    At least they don't have little hearts on them.
     
  4. Discipulus

    Discipulus Black Belt

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    Haha, thanks man. I think I can attribute a great deal of my improvement to the weight loss. It makes me wonder how guys like Roy Nelson do it, and how much better they'd be if they lost the weight. I'm still not thin, per se, and yet I feel much more comfortable moving around and coordinating my movements.

    I'm 6'0", so unless I lose enough weight to go down to cruiser (possible if I don't put on much muscle), I'll always be a small heavyweight, but I'm okay with that. I'm not working with Lu yet, but I'm going to take a probative trip to Vegas this summer, to test the water for a semi-permanent move in the next year or so. Once out there, I know that he'll have a lot to teach me about fighting to my strengths.

    I also think that more things have come together since I started really thinking of myself as a pressure fighter, which I definitely am. With the right context, I've found it a lot easier to practice doubling and tripling up my jab, getting low and taking big steps forward, and throwing my weight into my shots without losing balance.

    Finally, they're called boxers for a reason. These are now my official training shorts (I just wore them again today).
     
  5. Discipulus

    Discipulus Black Belt

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    That's not a bad idea...
     
  6. apizur**

    apizur** Aggressive Finesse.

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    Ah, I remember you now.

    Sin, that hook is your doing.

    Disc, you're too focused on staying back... but in the wrong way. You're in the position that DryingPole gets in when he invites an all-you-can-eat buffet of right hands very often. You've got absolutely nowhere to go when you throw your right hand like that, and a counter right would give you a LOT of trouble.

    Your hands are a lot more responsible coming back to the same level they started, but you didn't cover your head once. I'm not sure if your plan is to attempt to pick off every single strike thrown at you, but I would behoove you to play with a higher guard at times.

    This particular technique would give you so much trouble at 8:43


    At 3:55 of your video, you push forward with a shoulder bump. Pop off a fast 2 punch combination, slip, step and pivot out. It was the highlight of this video. That's where your balance really is. Your technique is decent, your balance is too far back.
     
  7. Discipulus

    Discipulus Black Belt

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    Thanks for the critique, man.

    What is it about my right hand that makes you think I have "nowhere to go" when I throw my right hand like that? And what makes me susceptible to a simple block and counter? In fact, the reason that counter seems so effective in the video you posted is that Anber leans forward on his right hand, giving Lemieux the range.

    Also, you're right that I need a greater variety of defensive techniques. I've been really trying to imagine an actual opponent in front of me more, but it comes and goes. As far as a high guard is concerned, though, I only ever throw one up when I'm in serious distress, and I would ultimately like to almost never need to do that. So to answer your question, yes: I do intend to pick off every shot thrown at me, or else ignore it and punch the other guy.
     
  8. delmata

    delmata White Belt

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    First, congratulations for losing all that weight, I was at 270 once as a teenager so I know what kind of a change that is, and what is required to make such a change.
    As for the bag work, I like how you initiate all your movement with your hips. Also, I like how you pivot to the left and shoot all of the lead hand punches while pivoting. I especially like the lead hook, short, compact, sneaky. I also like that rear UP with hip switching (cuban UP from the other thread), especially when you follow it with the left hook. I watched that video of Sinister working with Arni on the pads, it was great breakdown of the moves, will begin to incorporate it my own training. One thing I really didn't like (and it is because I do the same mistake sometimes), is the step to the right with the lead hand extended and controlling the bag/opponent. I like that move but IMO your step is too big and kinda lazy, and is leaving your body open for too long. But if it is intentionally done like that (exaggerated) for the purpose of learning, I understand it. Other thing that was on my mind was that you said you are a pressure fighter, but being a smaller heavyweight I would like to see more defense variation (high guard, ducking...) and attacking off of those defensive moves. I understand that you weren't focusing on that, but me being a heavyweight, I would like to see a video of you punching the heavybag like you would fight in the ring. Anyway, nice work, you should share more videos!
     
  9. RightHandLead

    RightHandLead Yellow Belt

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    Keep your hands up...


    [​IMG]

    Lol jk. Stance looks good.
     
  10. Babba

    Babba Purple Belt

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    i never get that much out of watching a heavybag. will be really fun to c u do some sparring though. good luck and apizurs comments seem legit to me, since you lack that freakish speed, a tight guard at moments is good. you are more a strength guy.


    [YT]UKIhNOh9s9I[/YT]

    look at the speed but still the guard is up when needed be. unless u develope an insane distance judgement of course
     
  11. NAKMUAY18

    NAKMUAY18 Brown Belt

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    Looking good in those short shorts man, Vale Tudo tighty whiteys next?

    Only major point i notice was your tempo. You fell into maintaing the same beat all the way through. You may or may not have the fastest of hands, but it would have been nice to see you mix up the speed now and again. I had the video on in the back ground and you can hear the beat being tapped out on the bag, pop,pops,shuffle,pop pop,pop,pause,pop.
    Good stuff though man
     
  12. karnifx

    karnifx Yellow Belt

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    Yeap, I concur with the idea of you as a pressure fighter and that's why they mention your susceptibility to right hooks and jabs, I'd also like to point out that your mid section needs improvement. Taking hits to the ribs and stomach without proper conditioning or technique will make you silly sloppy and open you up wide. I wouldn't personally capitalize on your faults while sparring you until you had enough drill experience to protect yourself well, that would just be a d*ck move IMO.

    I think you should work your neck and shoulders more with weight training, you want to play on your strengths.
     
  13. apizur**

    apizur** Aggressive Finesse.

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    I can't really describe it, but like... my ears pricked up or my eyebrows raised or my mouth started watering in a really non gay way when I saw that right hand. I'm like, "THERE! NOW!"

    This sounds crazy, but you're over committing your hips. The last time I saw you, your hand was just hanging out and I remember I made a little graphic about how much your hand dropped while you were waiting for your hips to come back around. That was part of what I saw good, was that this time your hand was coming much more straight back.
    ***I know we just had a Naudi thread on the T spine that we all groaned about, but some MORE t spine twist could get you to where you need to be without AS MUCH hip movement****
    Although you're very balanced unto yourself, being as far back as you are, you're not ready to take a punch without a compensatory step afterwards.... assuming you've got the wits to know where to put your foot after eating such a flat punch. It's really accentuated by the fact that your left hand is not up. If there was one point in time in which people can't reactive put their hands up... it's while they're punching. I would try to draw that right hand out constantly and ideally throw a dead straight right down your right just because the blow would be so telling, and if it did in fact force you to step... you now have no counter punch. It's a free pass.

    Your punch could be done WAY before that, you're actually slowing your punch down to give your hips time to come around.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2014
  14. shpboris

    shpboris Blue Belt

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    I thought pretty much the same. Not pretending to be absolutely correct here, but, IMO, unless you have an exceptional reflexes\speed it is better to have this last line of defense.

    Actually, IMO, even if you do have great reflexes and speed it is still valuable.
     
  15. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Just a couple of notes, really more for the critique-ers:

    1) If a guy's head isn't PAST his back foot, he's not too far back. Guys could have never fought out of the L-stance if merely having their weight over the rear foot meant they had no balance or defensive means.

    2) There's more than one way to skin a cat. Just a general point, tools in a tool box are a good thing, but the same tool doesn't always need to be used to do a job when there are other tools that will work just as good.

    3) It only takes greater speed and superior reflexes than an opponent to defend their punch, if you purely intend to stand stock-still until they throw their punch. Joe Frazier wasn't exceptionally fast, nor was he faster than Ali...but he made Ali miss plenty in their first two bouts when he had most of his vision still left.

    4) More advanced techniques cannot be fully practiced until they are learned. Connor is a smart guy, with a good eye, but has never made any bones about being a novice at-best. Analysis is easy for smart people who learn quickly. But being taught physical maneuvers is different. There's some small details missing, absolutely. Just keep that in-mind. You're not going to necessarily see bag-work with every element you can think of in it from someone who has yet to really learn how to perform all the elements, even if they can identify them and are fully aware of them.
     
  16. shpboris

    shpboris Blue Belt

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    As far as I remember, having his hands near the jaw line served Frazier quite well in his fights with Ali (and other fights as well). I mean, everybody looks only on his super flashy head movement, but he defended quite a lot of punches using his hands.

    Also using different kinds of defense adds more variety and becomes less predictable for the opponent, IMO. Also adds some fluidity to the style - kind of, boxing becomes less robotic.

    Your guys, if i remember it correctly, also fight with hands up from time to time (Bleau, T-bone).

    Don't you think that not using the guard for defense at all is something that is hardly achievable (unless you don't mind getting hit :)) ?
     
  17. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    His head-movement wasn't all that super-flashy. It was just consistent and well-taught. Naseem Hamed's was super-flashy. Frazier kept the right hand tucked at chin level, not so much the left.

    And what I think is too many conclusions are being drawn from 5 minutes of bag work.
     
  18. apizur**

    apizur** Aggressive Finesse.

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    Oh it makes sense now... if people punch at his head... Sin is going to jump in the way of their punches!!!!
     
  19. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    While apizur kicks his back foot all the way to the ropes and covers his head with both gloves.
     
  20. NAKMUAY18

    NAKMUAY18 Brown Belt

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    It was a bag work critique, that was the point.
     

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