Bagwork critique

[Deleted member 53472]

do you have access to a proper gym/coach? without it, technique is out the window

also, check out Ross Enamait's site, www.rossboxing.com for a lot of good tips

I'd also suggest clearing the stuff around the bag, so that you can circle it freely and work angles

get a real heavy bag, if possible. However, finding a pro coach should be the priority if you really want to get better. no amount of youtube videos or instructionals will setup your technique, although they will definitely help tremendously in the future, once you get the basics down

 

[Discipulus]

Saffiedine, Cariaso...

It's kind of hard to justify both of those guys' top ten rankings at this point, so not the best examples.

 

[a guy]

Saffiedine, Cariaso...

See you're missing the part where I'm being intentionally hyperbolic to make a point...

Of course there are some examples out there of guys who are consistent with their high, tight guards (even though Cariaso still drops his below chin level when he punches pretty frequently, just not to his hips or anything), but I'll give you some examples of guys who consistently drop one or both hands in most fights and don't block much.

JDS, Werdum, Velasquez, Jones, Gustafsson, Hunt, Cormier, Glover, Machida, Belfort, Weidman (who shells up less every single fight), Silva, Hendricks, Lawler, Macdonald, Pettis, Nurmagomedov, Melendez, Ben Henderson, Aldo (admittedly keeps a tight guard...until he starts slipping punches or attacking), Mendes, Edgar, Cub, Dillashaw, Barao (like Aldo keeps it very tight, but abandons it as soon as he's punching and rarely blocks, mostly moves away or swings back), Faber, MM, Dodson, Benavidez, Bagautinov, Wineland, Condit, Brown, Cruz...do I need to go on? That's at the very least the top 3 (including champ) of every division. Even the guys who use a high guard very rarely actually rely on it--they prefer to step back, slip, duck or otherwise evade, maybe swatting at some punches as they retreat out of range anyway.

The whole point here is that fighting with your hands down is a viable and effective method. In MMA it's probably preferable, but in boxing it's an absolutely legitimate option. It's different from what most people are taught so they get all pissy about it but there is no right hand position, only options.

 

[a guy]

It's kind of hard to justify both of those guys' top ten rankings at this point, so not the best examples.

I actually do like Saffedeine's use of his high guard to force the opponent to stand in his kicking range to get anything done though. You can't simply lunge in and hit him. He just looks like you have to put a combination together to get through, and on the way to doing that your steps give openings for his kicks. Cariaso though, eh I'm not a huge fan. He's ok to watch in my opinion and is probably only top 10 because are there even enough UFC flyweights for any of them to not be in the top 10?. :icon_twis

 

[Sinister]

You wouldn't though, I'd be in and out before you got back around because you wait for your hip to lead your punches. On top of the step point, if you were forced to step because you're so sat back there wouldn't be a counter-anything. Don't get gassed up by Sinister trying to argue with everyone about how your shit is fine. You're not a pro, we know you're not a pro, you know you're not a pro, and right now you're just taking observations from other fighters. You could put a little more shift on to the front leg when you throw the right, and not bring the hip around as much as you are.
I think your balance is good and you're getting full ROM on your strikes, but not every punch requires K.O. ROM, especially when it's going to stick you out of position for longer than necessary. A lesson I've learned the hard way. Other than that everything looked to be consistent IMO.

Dude, you're starting to overstep lines in an irritating way. How about you don't get all spooled-up about me not liking something you do and trying to fall back on "I could kick your ass" to someone whose experience you shit all over anyway, is mucn less than yours, and is currently at the short end of the stick when it comes to accessibility to what they want to learn. That's quite a dick-move...and last I checked you're not a Pro, either.

I like you and all, but this approach is beneath you.

 

[a guy]

Seems like it's been ages since I posted some of my work around here, so here we go.

First things first: yes, I am training in boxer shorts. This is what my obsession with short trunks has led me to. Don't follow in my footsteps, young ones.

Second, I think this is the first most of you will have seen of me since, with Luis' help, I lost a lot of weight. It's possible that, if I really managed my diet closely, I could get down to cruiser, but for the moment I'm comfortable just staying within the general guidelines and walking around at 220 (I started at 260ish). A lot of things have improved for me since dropping some of that weight, so I encourage all the Roy Nelsons out there to suck it up and pay attention to what you eat. It really is worth it.

Third, I'm pretty pleased with this. I decided to record something about twenty minutes after my full workout ended, and forgot to set a round timer, but you know how long a round feels when you're in the midst of it, so by the time I let myself look, five minutes had passed.

I start the round working on active lead hand work--jabs, long left hooks, and intercepting hooks, all while practicing catching with my right hand and keeping it in a defensive position (you can't really see my gloves too well in this light, sorry). Toward the end of the round I practice moving in behind that jab, and working on the inside, using shoulder bumps and pivots to find space in close.

Any criticisms or comments are quite welcome. Tear me apart, Sherdoggers.

Looking good Connor.

I think that everything you attempt you do well for the most part. Nak made good points about the tempo but overall I think it looks solid. Good movement at the hips, active and threatening lead hand, subtle and balanced footwork, it's nice work. I'm a fan of some of your tricks for getting inside like jabbing up high, bringing in the uppercut from below and switching to the lead hip as you come in. Also jabbing and sticking the elbow into position while stepping forward instead of just retracting the arm is sweet.

It does look like you get lazy after throwing your right straight a couple times though. You'll just chill with your head right in the line of fire before moving off or putting a left hook behind it occasionally. I'd like to see you either rock back, jab off, pivot or roll most times if you aren't gonna hook. And if you are gonna hook, putting it behind there a little quicker (or slipping first) would go a long way towards closing up what looks like an opening. I know sometimes you can throw a right hand and stay there waiting to see what the opponent is gonna do, maybe catch them rushing in as you pull counter, but I can't tell if that's what you're going for or if you're just admiring your punch.

I think it would benefit you to get a little lower when you swing on the inside. A couple times when you bumped the bag then let a combo go your feet had to step back to adjust. You do a great job coming in low, and if you get that healthy bend in your knees again when you're punching you'll have the leverage to stand your ground against the bag and move it instead of letting it knock you back.

For the record, I disagree with apizur's points about your right hand. I think you're in good position to punch or make a defensive move after, you just have to make sure you're prepared to do those things immediately if you have to. You should easily have time to see and avoid a block, counter right coming your way because your head isn't gonna be close enough to hit easily and your balance is fine so you can evade or fire back. This is what I believe Sin was alluding to: it's a big stretch to say that counter will hit you just because it looks like an opening might be there during bag work when the focus was elsewhere.

Thanks for sharing!

 

[Discipulus]

I think I've keyed in to what you and apizur are saying about about my right hand (even if apizur is being a knob about it). I believe it has something to do with me waiting for the bag to come back to me, since my right hand usually sends it swinging a good distance away. The body snatcher is small and swings a lot, so it takes a bit of waiting for it to get back to me, at which point I think I do a reasonably good job of hitting it or executing a defensive maneuver. It does, however, result in me hanging out a long time after my right has landed.

I'll hang my Thai bag, which is heavier and has a higher center of gravity, and see if I end up looking different.

 

[szJack]

Wow. Shit got really heated, considering it's just Connor hitting a bag

 

[Sinister]

What I REALLY like is the guy above saying not to learn anything online, but go check out Rossboxing.com!

 

[szJack]

What I REALLY like is the guy above saying not to learn anything online, but go check out Rossboxing.com!

On point

 

[apizur**]

That's it. I've had it with you two little girls.

In a much nicer than way than frankly honest, I've been trying to dissuade you, Sinister, from acting like Disc's dad because it's both annoying and standing in the way of constructive progress. You've been all over every single person who came in here trying to relate his practice of combat art to actual combat that wasn't paying a compliment... You've responded to almost every single person who's been speaking TO DISC. If, as according to you, I have the blessing of more coaching and experience then why the fuck SHOULDN'T I and the rest of us be in here giving him critique? Let go.

Disc I'm being a "knob" about it? About what? About giving you criticisms... or answering the question you asked me? Then you respond like Dryingpole used to and dismiss the answer to the question YOU ASKED ME and I'm being the knob. I'm not sure if this stems from the fact that we've had a disagreement or two in the past (boo hoo) but you've certainly made it no secret that you enjoy calling me third grade playground names. Let me tell you something, I humbly DO have more experience than you do and I'm telling you that in a combat situation that is something I would pick on. Despite the fact that I have a pretty transparent opinion of what I think non-combat participants' time and efforts amount to... here I am giving time and experience to one. One who's being a bit of a baby about it. If you're not training for combat, you're training for fucking dancing. Pick one.

Posting Videos of Training/Sparring
Before you take the time to upload that youtube video for all the world to see, and then start a new thread on Sherdog here are a few things to consider:

1. If you aren't training at a gym and have never received any legitimate training, don't bother posting your video. There isn't anything against the rules but it will probably be locked to cut down on ridiculous threads.

2. If you are looking for feedback, fine. However don't flame others for giving their criticisms when you chose to start a new thread.

3. There is nothing that will act as a substitute for training in a REAL gym. If you're looking for an ego boost you are sure to be disappointed because more often than not, you're going to look foolish prancing around in your backyard with UFC gloves and a sleeveless shirt.

4. Sparring/Training without proper guidance and/or headgear, gloves, etc. is dangerous and inhibits progression. It develops bad habits and can end up costing you an eye, a tooth or worse.

5. Put the video up at your own risk. If you look ridiculous in your video, it will be pointed out by other posters.

I don't think any of the three of us plan on going anywhere, so I'd recommend we learn to communicate. I'm not here to have my feelings stroked. I'm here to learn to fight. Considering the venue, I'm going to assume everyone here is as well.

 

[Cyclone Mike]

If you're not training for combat, you're training for fucking dancing. Pick one.

I'm stealing that, it's a good one.

Not going to address the hands up argument because its like the herpes of this forum... keeps coming back. What is there to say about it that hasn't already?

I thought that right hand was fine, but it's similar to how I throw mine so of course I would. Throwing the right hand with weight in the back still gives you the option of slipping leftward or pivoting, not sure what all the disagreement is about. Full disclaimer though, I'm not a thinker and I don't analyze well.

What I thought was best about the video was the balance. Rear uppercut looks kind of funny, don't know if it would work. Now it's time to put up some sparring footage

 

[Discipulus]

Your tone is what makes you come off like a knob, man. I didn't react to your criticism with any hostility, and yet when Luis disagreed with you, you came back at me like I was insulting you.

Don't get gassed up by Sinister trying to argue with everyone about how your shit is fine. You're not a pro, we know you're not a pro, you know you're not a pro, and right now you're just taking observations from other fighters.

That's an aggressive tone unless I'm completely misinterpreting your intentions. I even acknowledged the validity of your criticism, and yet you came back with some aggressive response simply because Luis didn't agree with your concerns. I didn't ask him to back me up. He's in control of what he says, not me. And my response to you was reasonable and polite. You assumed I was getting "gassed up," whatever that means, because you didn't like what Lu had to say to you, but I had no part in that.

Also, you do seem a little too bothered by someone disagreeing with you, as if by backing up what I'm doing Luis is automatically calling you an idiot for not being fine with it. You clearly think my shit isn't fine, but you don't have to get so personally invested in your critiques that somebody who isn't me disagreeing with them causes you to treat me like I'm being an asshole.

Edit: Also, I began responding the moment I read the first part of your last post, to explain what I saw in your previous posts that was "knob-ish." Upon reading the rest of your post, I think it's safe to say that you're waaaay too heated about this, and if you look back through the thread I think you'll find that you were the first one to escalate the discussion into a heated argument. I respect your opinion, but you don't seem to be able to take it when someone disagrees with you. I get it: you're quippy and "real," but you don't need to jump all over everyone the moment someone thinks you're wrong. You should be more used to that by now.

 

[Discipulus]

I'm stealing that, it's a good one.

Not going to address the hands up argument because its like the herpes of this forum... keeps coming back. What is there to say about it that hasn't already?

I thought that right hand was fine, but it's similar to how I throw mine so of course I would. Throwing the right hand with weight in the back still gives you the option of slipping leftward or pivoting, not sure what all the disagreement is about. Full disclaimer though, I'm not a thinker and I don't analyze well.

What I thought was best about the video was the balance. Rear uppercut looks kind of funny, don't know if it would work. Now it's time to put up some sparring footage

This was my thought as well. I don't feel incapable of moving right after that punch, and I think I've found the reason behind the appearance that I'm stuck in place, which is that I'm waiting for the bag to come back so that I can react to it. I'm definitely going to look into it, though.

 

[Sinister]

That's it. I've had it with you two little girls.

In a much nicer than way than frankly honest, I've been trying to dissuade you, Sinister, from acting like Disc's dad because it's both annoying and standing in the way of constructive progress. You've been all over every single person who came in here trying to relate his practice of combat art to actual combat that wasn't paying a compliment... You've responded to almost every single person who's been speaking TO DISC. If, as according to you, I have the blessing of more coaching and experience then why the fuck SHOULDN'T I and the rest of us be in here giving him critique? Let go.

Disc I'm being a "knob" about it? About what? About giving you criticisms... or answering the question you asked me? Then you respond like Dryingpole used to and dismiss the answer to the question YOU ASKED ME and I'm being the knob. I'm not sure if this stems from the fact that we've had a disagreement or two in the past (boo hoo) but you've certainly made it no secret that you enjoy calling me third grade playground names. Let me tell you something, I humbly DOave more experience than you do and I'm telling you that in a combat situation that is something I would pick on. Despite the fact that I have a pretty transparent opinion of what I think non-combat participants' time and efforts amount to... here I am giving time and experience to one. One who's being a bit of a baby about it. If you're not training for combat, you're training for fucking dancing. Pick one.



I don't think any of the three of us plan on going anywhere, so I'd recommend we learn to communicate. I'm not here to have my feelings stroked. I'm here to learn to fight. Considering the venue, I'm going to assume everyone here is as well.

If you want to learn to get along, learn to get along. You've been a harsh critic of Connor in the past, and I think you're putting that, along with your dislike for a particular method of MINE (that I've stated before in your own threads), in here. That doesn't actually belong in here. You didn't do this in any other thread where someone I influence has displayed their technique. Why this thread? Why this guy? Does how he throws the right REALLY bother you that much? Seems like there's something more going on here. This isn't the only time I've ever told people not to infer too much from minor footage of bag work or sparring, either. But this is one of the few times someone such as yourself has taken exception to being told that. It's not difficult to see that it's because of who Connor is, or perhaps, who Connor aspires to be.

I haven't actually responded to every single person, nor have I jumped all over anyone. Nak made his point and now we're done with it. You are the one with a continuous axe to grind. You gave your opinion, it was disagreed with, then you went into "I'd kick your ass" land. You say because you have the benefit of training? Well, I am a trainer...and I say "his shit is fine" despite that its incomplete as of this moment. If training is so important a factor, then you should be able to accept the word of a trainer, even if it goes against your own practise...but you, in essence, said to ignore that. Take your own advice, let go.

 

[Cheap Shot]

I stopped posting in this sub forum entirely as it appears that every thread is a Sin circle jerk or people getting resentful of sound advice that doesn't jive with his style.

Not everyone needs a 12 minute tutorial on how to make a fist, and truth be told, keeping your hands up can actually be really beneficial.

It's tiring.

Edit: I should add that this isn't a dig at Louis, the OP, or anyone else posting in the thread. It just seems that more often than not there is one accepted school of thought here and all others are dismissed, insulted, or turned into a running "keep your hands up" joke. Sin is a good coach, but he isn't the only good coach on the boards.

 

[apizur**]

Your tone is what makes you come off like a knob, man. I didn't react to your criticism with any hostility, and yet when Luis disagreed with you, you came back at me like I was insulting you.



That's an aggressive tone unless I'm completely misinterpreting your intentions.

I didn't intend any intial responses to be aggressive. What bothered me what you asked me specify why I picked on the balance for the right hand, when I responded with something I've learned from experience, it seemed like you just brushed it off. I'm sitting back like, "Wow, I just gave this dude something so he could tell me where to stick it."

I'm not really as heated towards you as I am towards Sin helicoptering over this thread then getting mouthy when he got called out on it.

You've been a harsh critic of Connor in the past, and I think you're putting that, along with your dislike for a particular method of MINE (that I've stated before in your own threads), in here. ... You didn't do this in any other thread where someone I influence has displayed their technique. Why this thread? Why this guy? Does how he throws the right REALLY bother you that much? Seems like there's something more going on here... It's not difficult to see that it's because of who Connor is, or perhaps, who Connor aspires to be.

You gave your opinion, it was disagreed with, then you went into "I'd kick your ass" land.

I'm sorry to deflate these points I see you trying to make/set up, but in the grand scheme of things, y'all ain't as important to me as you're trying to make the both of you out to be. I don't have it out for this dude. I never said I'd kick anyone's ass. I just don't like where his balance is when he throws the right hand.
If he doesn't have or want to give a retort, he doesn't need yours. If it bothers you that people respond to your public messages with their opinions, set up a PM with this dude.

 

[Discipulus]

I stopped posting in this sub forum entirely as it appears that every thread is a Sin circle jerk or people getting resentful of sound advice that doesn't jive with his style.

Not everyone needs a 12 minute tutorial on how to make a fist, and truth be told, keeping your hands up can actually be really beneficial.

It's tiring.

Edit: I should add that this isn't a dig at Louis, the OP, or anyone else posting in the thread. It just seems that more often than not there is one accepted school of thought here and all others are dismissed, insulted, or turned into a running "keep your hands up" joke. Sin is a good coach, but he isn't the only good coach on the boards.

For the record, the "keep your hands up" joke is pretty much only perpetuated by sourdiesel these days.

And I do apologize if I came off as resentful of anyone's advice. That wasn't my intention.

 

[Cheap Shot]

For the record, the "keep your hands up" joke is pretty much only perpetuated by sourdiesel these days.

And I do apologize if I came off as resentful of anyone's advice. That wasn't my intention.

Totally understandable on both counts, and noted for sure. I just feel like this sub-forum can be soooooooo closed minded to anything outside of one approach. There are a bunch of talented individuals on the boards that can offer advice that get brushed off consistently because it's in clear contrast to the way Sin would run things.

There isn't anything wrong with his approach, but boxing is so varied by its nature that it would plenty of people some good if, well, they were open to doing things differently.

 

[Sinister]

I didn't intend any intial responses to be aggressive. What bothered me what you asked me specify why I picked on the balance for the right hand, when I responded with something I've learned from experience, it seemed like you just brushed it off. I'm sitting back like, "Wow, I just gave this dude something so he could tell me where to stick it."

I'm not really as heated towards you as I am towards Sin helicoptering over this thread then getting mouthy when he got called out on it.



I'm sorry to deflate these points I see you trying to make/set up, but in the grand scheme of things, y'all ain't as important to me as you're trying to make the both of you out to be. I don't have it out for this dude. I never said I'd kick anyone's ass. I just don't like where his balance is when he throws the right hand.
If he doesn't have or want to give a retort, he doesn't need yours. If it bothers you that people respond to your public messages with their opinions, set up a PM with this dude.

I gave my retort BECAUSE its a public forum. Your level of irritation is unimportant to me, what is important to me is when someone (you) make an erroneous assumption of something derived from me, and then implied that my approval of a technique should be ignored. This IS a public board, so if someone (you) is mistaken about a principal of mine, I'm going to say so. Don't like it? P.M. me directly about it. But this is not the first time you've ever come down on Connor specifically, and if you're going to on what I feel is a misrepresentation, or misinterpretation of something that reflects on me, then I'm going to say something.