Locked AVENGERS: END GAME v.2 (Super Bowl Spot)

[MikeMcMann]

Apparently it's still working today because the MCU lead by Cap and Tony is huge and in the comics, they recently brought the OGs Steve, Tony and Thor back together for the Avengers.

Meanwhile Captain Marvel comics aren't doing well and the upcoming movie is getting mixed reception.

It's great to see strong black characters like BP but I don't want t be pandered to. I don't want to see a black lead that's a representation of a cause, rather than being his/her own person. Also, even though I'm black, I still enjoy characters like Tony, Thor and Strange because they're good characters. I'm not hyper-focused on race and gender like loudmouth bloggers seem to think I am.

No one is saying the current mix is not working. It is. it is also getting too expensive to keep as the focal point of each movie.

I certainly understand the MCU wanting and needing to expand the Universe. They have so many characters they want to bring in. And they won't play it safe with mainstream 'popular' characters from the CBU or they would have never gambled on GOTG or giving AntMan a solo movie. They are willing to take less popular characters from the CBU and build them up in the MCU.

I look at this way. Media (any media) is going to look around at the audience and try to pander to that audience. that is not a bad thing, it is simply reality. So i don't see it as egregious that they will focus on more female and ethnic characters in this arc. When they brought in AntMan no one really complained that they had plucked yet another white male character from relative obscurity to focus on and build up. No one really pointed out that pandering, and that is because that is our norm. We don't see it as it is generally what always happens.

We notice females and ethnics simply because it is more the exception than the rule and that is going to change even if it rustles some people who want things to remain as they were.

 

[Brother Numsi]

Apparently it's still working today because the MCU lead by Cap and Tony is huge and in the comics, they recently brought the OGs Steve, Tony and Thor back together for the Avengers.

Meanwhile Captain Marvel comics aren't doing well and the upcoming movie is getting mixed reception.

It's great to see strong black characters like BP but I don't want t be pandered to. I don't want to see a black lead that's a representation of a cause, rather than being his/her own person. Also, even though I'm black, I still enjoy characters like Tony, Thor and Strange because they're good characters. I'm not hyper-focused on race and gender like loudmouth bloggers seem to think I am.

I agree with all this

That's the one thing that drives me crazy about Black Panther: the obvious pandering to a black audience. I mean, Spider Man: Into the Spiderverse was one of the best superhero movie ever made with a young black/Latino kid in the lead role and I didn't see any of my "pro-black" peeps talking about it on social media or showing up in 'African' garb. Would love to see some more black characters in comic roles, too and I think Marvel has done a great job in that so far.

I never liked Superman, Batman, Spider Man, Iron Man, or the Incredible Hulk because they were white. Black Panther and Blade weren't in my top ten of greatest superheroes because I'm black and their black comic characters. That's just asinine. I can't stand identity politics especially in comic book movies. Let these movies greatness stand on its on merit.

 

[MikeMcMann]

I agree with all this

That's the one thing that drives me crazy about Black Panther: the obvious pandering to a black audience. I mean, Spider Man: Into the Spiderverse was one of the best superhero movie ever made with a young black/Latino kid in the lead role and I didn't see any of my "pro-black" peeps talking about it on social media or showing up in 'African' garb. Would love to see some more black characters in comic roles, too and I think Marvel has done a great job in that so far.

I never liked Superman, Batman, Spider Man, Iron Man, or the Incredible Hulk because they were white. Black Panther and Blade weren't in my top ten of greatest superheroes because I'm black and their black comic characters. That's just asinine. I can't stand identity politics especially in comic book movies. Let these movies greatness stand on its on merit.

this is a popular but very ill conceived complaint.

Integral to Black Panthers identity is the Wakanda/Africa story line. the 'isolation' story line. That necessitates it focusing on identity where Spiderman does not.

Just as telling the BraveHeart Story, Vikings TV show story, GodFather Story, Gladiator Story, need you to understand and be drawn from the source world from which the material flows out of.

 

[Horse Style]

No one is saying the current mix is not working. It is. it is also getting too expensive to keep as the focal point of each movie.

I certainly understand the MCU wanting and needing to expand the Universe. They have so many characters they want to bring in. And they won't play it safe with mainstream 'popular' characters from the CBU or they would have never gambled on GOTG or giving AntMan a solo movie. They are willing to take less popular characters from the CBU and build them up in the MCU.

I look at this way. Media (any media) is going to look around at the audience and try to pander to that audience. that is not a bad thing, it is simply reality. So i don't see it as egregious that they will focus on more female and ethnic characters in this arc. When they brought in AntMan no one really complained that they had plucked yet another white male character from relative obscurity to focus on and build up. No one really pointed out that pandering, and that is because that is our norm. We don't see it as it is generally what always happens.

We notice females and ethnics simply because it is more the exception than the rule and that is going to change even if it rustles some people who want things to remain as they were.

The problem isn't with expanding the focus to characters other than the OGs. The problem is trying to force a character/idea.

Hard pandering doesn't work anymore. Ask movies like Ghostbusters 2016 and Ocean's 8. People (white, black, latino, women, etc.) want characters they can identify with AND are well-written.

AntMan wasn't pandering. What in God's name are you talking about? Are you just seeing these heros as their racial/gender identities or something? When I saw AntMan, I just saw some goofy hero with uninteresting powers. I didn't see "just another white boy they're throwing at us".

When I saw Black Panther, I liked that he was black AND that he was well-written and had struggles outside of "oh the evil white man is always trying to keep us down".

Wonder Woman is great because she's well-written and isn't just a caricature fighting against "the patriarchy" like the current run of Captain Marvel.

 

[superpunch]

We notice females and ethnics simply because it is more the exception than the rule and that is going to change even if it rustles some people who want things to remain as they were.

I disagree. I think people notice 'ethnics and women' because they're inserted into movies that feel like a Gillette razor ad. It makes no sense that Rey is the most powerful jedi the galaxy with no training. It feels like they put in the scene of that purple haired woman talking assertively over that guy just to show girl power. Hollywood just can't seem to stop itself from doing that shit. To MCU's credit, they've seemingly avoided that feeling in their movies so far.

 

[Amerikuracana]

This is disappointing. I thought if was going to be a trailer for Justice League 2.

What's funny, I remember comics in the late 80s and early 90s as an older kid, and Thor and iron man were total B team back then. I'm sure they had their following, but X-force was bigger at that time lol

 

[MikeMcMann]

The problem isn't with expanding the focus to characters other than the OGs. The problem is trying to force a character/idea.

Hard pandering doesn't work anymore. Ask movies like Ghostbusters 2016 and Ocean's 8. People (white, black, latino, women, etc.) want characters they can identify with AND are well-written.

AntMan wasn't pandering. What in God's name are you talking about? Are you just seeing these heros as their racial/gender identities or something? When I saw AntMan, I just saw some goofy hero with uninteresting powers. I didn't see "just another white boy they're throwing at us".

When I saw Black Panther, I liked that he was black AND that he was well-written and had struggles outside of "oh the evil white man is always trying to keep us down".

Wonder Woman is great because she's well-written and isn't just a caricature fighting against "the patriarchy" like the current run of Captain Marvel.

m'eh.

You seem to be pre-judging Captain Marvel as terrible (comparing her to Ghost busters) while admitting WonderWoman worked even though so many were predicting it would flop prior and calling it pandering. So do you admit your entire rant here goes away if Captain Marvel ends up working?

And of course if plucking a not so popular female character and investing in building her up in the MCU is pandering then so to is plucking a not so popular white male character. You make my point in saying you do not see it. We don't see it as that is the norm.

Anyway I don't want this thread derailed by race stuff and this talk will certainly draw out the sherfronters amongst us and that does not belong here. It seems as long as you end up liking the story (like you did with WW and BP) you will be fine with it, but you reserve your right to be offended right up until you actually see it as many did with WW and I am fine with that.

 

[MikeMcMann]

I disagree. I think people notice 'ethnics and women' because they're inserted into movies that feel like a Gillette razor ad. It makes no sense that Rey is the most powerful jedi the galaxy with no training. It feels like they put in the scene of that purple haired woman talking assertively over that guy just to show girl power. Hollywood just can't seem to stop itself from doing that shit. To MCU's credit, they've seemingly avoided that feeling in their movies so far.

Yes indeed. If the internet commentators had their way WonderWoman would have never been made due to the obvious pandering. God knows we heard the complaints on this forum about it.

But I do agree with you. INCREASINGLY you will see Hollywood insert women and ethnics into more important roles. Some of it will work (Wonder Woman) and some will not (Rey) and that is OK in my opinion. The days of vast, VAST majority, of important characters in TV and Movies being almost exclusively white males is over. Media HAS ALWAYS pandered, media will ALWAYS pander. We only notice the pandering now because it is to different groups. The Chinese will play an increase role due to China's impact on box office and Hollywood will keep trying to figure out how to do that properly.

Es normal.

 

[Brother Numsi]

this is a popular but very ill conceived complaint.

Integral to Black Panthers identity is the Wakanda/Africa story line. the 'isolation' story line. That necessitates it focusing on identity where Spiderman does not.

Just as telling the BraveHeart Story, Vikings TV show story, GodFather Story, Gladiator Story, need you to understand and be drawn from the source world from which the material flows out of.

I get that 100%. Luke Cage takes place in Harlem so obviously they are going to touch on issues in the inner city and explore Black culture. Makes perfect sense. My point was how some folks were acting like BP was the greatest movie Marvel has ever done because it had an all Black cast and my point was that Into the Spiderverse was just as good if not better with a Black lead and diverse cast. But it was never marketed that way by movie critics and fans. It was just a really good Spiderman movie to the audience.

That's what kind of scares me a little about BP. If the sequel takes place mostly out of Wakanda those same people are going to complain they "white washed" BP or whatever because they only care about identity politics and not storylines. I remember when the night I saw BP, at the end (*spoiler alert*) when Sebastian Stan made a cameo appearance, some Black dudes behind me were like, "man, who is this White man in Wakanda?" And I'm like that's the Winter Soldier, dumbass! It was obvious they didn't watch any of the other Marvel movies to follow the story line.

At the end of the day, I am happy for BP success and wish for many more movies to come. But I also understand at the end of the day, it's just a part of the Marvel/Disney universe same as Iron Man and Thor.

 

[Horse Style]

m'eh.

You seem to be pre-judging Captain Marvel as terrible (comparing her to Ghost busters) while admitting WonderWoman worked even though so many were predicting it would flop prior and calling it pandering. So do you admit your entire rant here goes away if Captain Marvel ends up working?

I'm judging it based on what they've said about her character in the MCU so far. I actually don't care much that she's boring. Steve Rogers was boring in the first Cap movie. There are two things they said that many fans and I have a problem with:

1) She's going to be the the deciding factor in Thanos's defeat
2) She's going to be the new face of the MCU

Making her a deus ex-machina over the other characters the fanbase has been following over the last 10 years is horrible writing and they know it's horrible writing so why are they doing it? Because they want to pander to the female demographic.

Making her the new face of the MCU before her movie comes out also stinks of pandering. They're not letting popularity decide who they should push. They are letting a political agenda decide.

And of course if plucking a not so popular female character and investing in building her up in the MCU is pandering then so to is plucking a not so popular white male character. You make my point in saying you do not see it. We don't see it as that is the norm.

Strawman. No one was complaining when GOTO got two movies so I don't know where you got it in your head that people have an issue with building up unpopular characters.

Anyway I don't want this thread derailed by race stuff and this talk will certainly draw out the sherfronters amongst us and that does not belong here. It seems as long as you end up liking the story (like you did with WW and BP) you will be fine with it, but you reserve your right to be offended right up until you actually see it as many did with WW and I am fine with that.

Like I said, my problem is with Marvel pushing her to please a certain demographic. I have no problem with the Captain Marvel movie doing well and it won't change the problematic issues I just brought up.

 

[MikeMcMann]

I get that 100%. Luke Cage takes place in Harlem so obviously they are going to touch on issues in the inner city and explore Black culture. Makes perfect sense. My point was how some folks were acting like BP was the greatest movie Marvel has ever done because it had an all Black cast and my point was that Into the Spiderverse was just as good if not better with a Black lead and diverse cast. But it was never marketed that way by movie critics and fans. It was just a really good Spiderman movie to the audience.

That's what kind of scares me a little about BP. If the sequel takes place mostly out of Wakanda those same people are going to complain they "white washed" BP or whatever because they only care about identity politics and not storylines. I remember when the night I saw BP, at the end (*spoiler alert*) when Sebastian Stan made a cameo appearance, some Black dudes behind me were like, "man, who is this White man in Wakanda?" And I'm like that's the Winter Soldier, dumbass! It was obvious they didn't watch any of the other Marvel movies to follow the story line.

At the end of the day, I am happy for BP success and wish for many more movies to come. But I also understand at the end of the day, it's just a part of the Marvel/Disney universe same as Iron Man and Thor.

I grew up in a mostly italian town and you should have seen the Italians go nuts for the GodFather movies. Many a father and Grandfather who had never seen a movie in Canada got up to go watch in the theatres and that was not even a positive portrayal.

I never saw anyone rustled by that. But yes 'some folks' were excited for Black Panther and 'other folks' took that and over played it as if somehow that was offensive to them that others got excited by a portrayal. Again i never saw anyone rustled by the Italians or Scottish or others getting excited by a movie that parallels and portrays aspects of their upbringing.

 

[MikeMcMann]

I'm judging it based on what they've said about her character in the MCU so far. I actually don't care much that she's boring. Steve Rogers was boring in the first Cap movie. There are two things they said that many fans and I have a problem with:

1) She's going to be the the deciding factor in Thanos's defeat
2) She's going to be the new face of the MCU

Making her a deus ex-machina over the other characters the fanbase has been following over the last 10 years is horrible writing and they know it's horrible writing so why are they doing it? Because they want to pander to the female demographic.

Making her the new face of the MCU before her movie comes out also stinks of pandering. They're not letting popularity decide who they should push. They are letting a political agenda decide.


Strawman. No one was complaining when GOTO got two movies so I don't know where you got it in your head that people have an issue with building up unpopular characters.


Like I said, my problem is with Marvel pushing her to please a certain demographic. I have no problem with the Captain Marvel movie doing well and it won't change the problematic issues I just brought up.

So you are taking what has leaked about her as verbatim or the gospel truth despite the fact the MCU has used misdirection many, many times in the past and hating on her and the movie based on that.

I for one do not think she will play the role you think she will. I think she will be an important and very powerful character introduced and she will have a key role but in the end the established characters will be the key to Thanos defeat.

I think she may buy them time and maybe even pull them back from what looks like a certain defeat at some point, as they expose her Binary powers, which at that point will be unknown even to her, and that will set up the final fight which will be Cap, Iron Man and Dr Strange lead likely with Cap making that ultimate sacrifice he always talks about, to get the team the win (just my guess since we are guessing).

 

[Horse Style]

So you are taking what has leaked about her as verbatim or the gospel truth despite the fact the MCU has used misdirection many, many times in the past and hating on her and the movie based on that.

I for one do not think she will play the role you think she will. I think she will be an important and very powerful character introduced and she will have a key role but in the end the established characters will be the key to Thanos defeat.

I think she may buy them time and maybe even pull them back from what looks like a certain defeat at some point, as they expose her Binary powers, which at that point will be unknown even to her, and that will set up the final fight which will be Cap, Iron Man and Dr Strange lead likely with Cap making that ultimate sacrifice he always talks about, to get the team the win (just my guess since we are guessing).

I have to believe what they put out until shown otherwise. It will be a pleasant surprise if they were lying but there is a difference in using misdirection in trailers and outright saying so and so is gonna happen in interviews.

 

[Brother Numsi]

I grew up in a mostly italian town and you should have seen the Italians go nuts for the GodFather movies. Many a father and Grandfather who had never seen a movie in Canada got up to go watch in the theatres and that was not even a positive portrayal.

I never saw anyone rustled by that. But yes 'some folks' were excited for Black Panther and 'other folks' took that and over played it as if somehow that was offensive to them that others got excited by a portrayal. Again i never saw anyone rustled by the Italians or Scottish or others getting excited by a movie that parallels their parallels aspects of their upbringing.

It's not about being 'rustled.' To see a movie like Black Panther with that type of cast in a big budget movie was amazing to see as a black man. Same way when Jordan Peele had so much success with 'Get Out' and even when Straight Outta Compton dropped a few years ago. These movies weren't just popular with black audiences but with various types of people. They had success because they were really good

The Godfather I and II are arguably two of the greatest movies ever made regardless of it's positive or negative portrayal of Italian culture. Did Italian American go see the movie because they were all criminals who supported the Mafia? Of course not. Great movies stand on their own merit regardless of the race or gender of the cast. Just because a movie has an all black, all Asian, or all female cast doesn't mean that I'll watch or support them. I think quality is more important than diversity in the entertainment industry.

But I get how important representation can be in film I really do and you make some great points

 

[liljoe]

Both Avengers and Captain Marvel trailers looked good.
Marvel on track to dominate the universe once again.

 

[MikeMcMann]

It's not about being 'rustled.' To see a movie like Black Panther with that type of cast in a big budget movie was amazing to see as a black man. Same way when Jordan Peele had so much success with 'Get Out' and even when Straight Outta Compton dropped a few years ago. These movies weren't just popular with black audiences but with various types of people. They had success because they were really good

The Godfather I and II are arguably two of the greatest movies ever made regardless of it's positive or negative portrayal of Italian culture. Did Italian American go see the movie because they were all criminals who supported the Mafia? Of course not. Great movies stand on their own merit regardless of the race or gender of the cast. Just because a movie has an all black, all Asian, or all female cast doesn't mean that I'll watch or support them. I think quality is more important than diversity in the entertainment industry.

But I get how important representation can be in film I really do and you make some great points

The GodFather movies were great but that misses my point. They got overwhelmingly disproportional support from a group (Italians) BECAUSE it resonated with them on a cultural level.

They would have been successful regardless because they were very good and the non-Italian audience are the bigger market. But make no mistake, as the reason the fathers and grandfathers and all the uncles of my italian friends, etc, all went to see this movie many times when they had never, a single time before gone to see a movie since arriving in N.America was BECAUSE it resonated deeply in a cultural way. It had a greater appeal to it beyond the solid movie and story telling. Thus why they never got up and went to other 'great' movies that were not Italian focused.

Black Panthers fictional world was able to create that same type of connection too for 'some folks' and 'other folks' got really rustled that 'some folks' really got more out of it.

 

[method115]

1) She's going to be the the deciding factor in Thanos's defeat
2) She's going to be the new face of the MCU

The thing is what does this even mean. Number 1 can mean all sort of things. Iron man was the deicing factor in the first Avengers movie but he didn't do that shit himself by a long shot. In fact every single Avengers movie has required all the characters working together to get the W. I guarantee you it's exactly the same in End Game.

Number 2. Again what does the face of the MCU even mean? Who was the face of the MCU this time around? I guess it would have been Tony? Now how has Tony being the face of the MCU affected any of other movies at all? IMO it hasn't at all. I never saw one of these movies and thought "Man if it wasn't for Tony being the face of the MCU this would have sucked."

 

[MikeMcMann]

The thing is what does this even mean. Number 1 can mean all sort of things. Iron man was the deicing factor in the first Avengers movie but he didn't do that shit himself by a long shot. In fact every single Avengers movie has required all the characters working together to get the W. I guarantee you it's exactly the same in End Game.

Number 2. Again what does the face of the MCU even mean? Who was the face of the MCU this time around? I guess it would have been Tony? Now how has Tony being the face of the MCU affected any of other movies at all? IMO it hasn't at all. I never saw one of these movies and thought "Man if it wasn't for Tony being the face of the MCU this would have sucked."

Agreed.

We are all speculating at this point and we know the Russo's love to try and misdirect to get some surprise value in the movies. I can see her being a hitter and just like Thor, coming into a battle and making a major impact. Maybe force Thanos to retreat. But I would bet my money that the old guard particularly Cap, IronMan, Hulk and Thor play the biggest roles, and Doctor Strange and Antman even play bigger roles than hers. But they will give her a good intro as they want her to be key going forward. Iron Man and Cap were 'the face' but that did not stop the expanded universe from emerging around them and all sorts of important characters being developed.

 

[Horse Style]

The thing is what does this even mean. Number 1 can mean all sort of things. Iron man was the deicing factor in the first Avengers movie but he didn't do that shit himself by a long shot. In fact every single Avengers movie has required all the characters working together to get the W. I guarantee you it's exactly the same in End Game.

Even if we go by your example and have a similar situation where Captain Marvel single-handedly ends the threat like Tony did, it won't go over well. It was fine with Tony because the MCU started with him and he's the face. The audience had an emotional connection built up with Tony and it was a big deal that his character grew into someone who would sacrifice himself for everyone.

If a new hero, who the audience has nothing invested in, just showed up and did what Iron Man did, it would have been a WTF?

Number 2. Again what does the face of the MCU even mean? Who was the face of the MCU this time around? I guess it would have been Tony? Now how has Tony being the face of the MCU affected any of other movies at all? IMO it hasn't at all. I never saw one of these movies and thought "Man if it wasn't for Tony being the face of the MCU this would have sucked."

You don't know what "face of something" means? When people think of the MCU, they think of RDJ as Iron Man. That's what "face of the MCU" means. He's the most popular. He gets the biggest pops when he's on screen. If there are any WWF fans, think Stone Cold back in the Attitude Era.

And OF COURSE Tony being the face affects the quality of the movies he's in. Just imagine all the Avengers movies but take out Iron Man and ask yourself if it would be as good not having his charisma, character development and the action he brings as part of the movie.

 

[Brother Numsi]

The GodFather movies were great but that misses my point. They got overwhelmingly disproportional support from a group (Italians) BECAUSE it resonated with them on a cultural level.

They would have been successful regardless because they were very good and the non-Italian audience are the bigger market. But make no mistake, as the reason the fathers and grandfathers and all the uncles of my italian friends, etc, all went to see this movie many times when they had never, a single time before gone to see a movie since arriving in N.America was BECAUSE it resonated deeply in a cultural way. It had a greater appeal to it beyond the solid movie and story telling. Thus why they never got up and went to other 'great' movies that were not Italian focused.

Black Panthers fictional world was able to create that same type of connection too for 'some folks' and 'other folks' got really rustled that 'some folks' really got more out of it.

I think it breaks down into 4 type of groups:

30%- "I thought Black Panther was the best Marvel movie ever and one of the best films of all time", type of group

30%- "I thought BP was a very good movie and one of the better Marvel movies to date", type of group

30%- "I thought BP was good to just okay", type of group

10%- "I thought the movie was overrated SJW garbage being pushed on us for the sake of diversity", type of group

I think the people you are talking about are the last group but as you can see they are a smaller group by far than the first 3. There's a saying that the most ignorant voice in the room tends to be the loudest voice in the room. Those other folks have some influence but not as much as we think. BP grossed over a billion dollars because of the first 3 groups of people and not the last one. Numbers always tell the 'real' story.