As a WHITE MALE you aren't allowed to have an opinion

[dontsnitch]

Well, first off, I am 'they'. I am a white male. And it is a very rare thing for me to experience racism or bias in any way. And very rare for me to observe other white males experiencing racism or bias.

The societal shift you are referring to is not racism towards white people. It is increasing intolerance of racism from white people. White people have been used to being able to get their bigot on whenever they want without consequence or pushback. That is happening less and less, and some people don't like it.

Women and minorities, those pesky bunches, are not satisfied with no longer being slaves, being able to own land and vote, not having to sit in the back of the bus, drink from different water fountains and go to different schools. Now they are after the sacred cow: REAL equality. Same wages, same promotional opportunities. Real, visceral pushback and consequences towards even less overt slights.

And as we inch closer and closer to true equality, white males will chafe even more. White males have never, ever, experienced true equality. We have never lived in a world where we had to compete with everyone else on equal footing. We have only experienced varying degrees of inequality in our favor. And as this planetary teeter totter gets closer and closer to even (we are still a good 5 generations away from that) we are going to be crying like babies. It's like the rest of the world has been carrying more gravity than us since the beginning. They are slowly giving our share back to us, and we don't like it, not one little bit.

If you think you deserve chafing, based on the colour of your skin, you've misunderstood what equality means.

 

[cooks1]

Yeah this really is fucked up.
The overwhelming successes in America of Asians and East Indians belies the Democrat mantra of "you're a poor oppressed minority, so here's some free shit, and btw.. white republicans are your mortal enemy". Subsequently they are left out when discussing racial oppression.

Which is absurd considering that observing what ethnic minority groups have been in America the shortest amount of time, Asians and East Indians are at the top of the list yet they are typically just as successful or more successful as the average white American even with no legacy advangates. Just a stable 2 parent home and solid work ethics. That's a mind blowing concept , I know.

Tangentally- is anyone here aware of the discrepancies between acceptable MCAT scores to get into med school between a prospective black student and a prospective Asian student? The answer will make you want to throw up, that such blatant racism (IMO) is prevalent in the 21st century. Especially in matters as critical as health care.

Punishing those who make good choices and work hard, while lowering the bar for only select races , in the name of equality seems like the definition of a eugenic
oxymoron. Yet we just keep quiet and roll with it, because hey... "I don't want to be called insensitive or a racist"

Aside from the 'yeah, this is really fucked up' part, I don't think there are very many people that would read this and come away thinking it was a racist statement.

The problem comes when someone says, 'Yeah, this is really fucked up' and tries to say in 3 obnoxious sentences what you explained in 3 paragraphs. Or worse yet, when they just say, 'Yeah, this is really fucked up."

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

I hate writing these rants because it just leads to us speaking past each other. Here is the one point I want to make. You can ignore the rest, even though I put it in a spoiler instead of erasing it, just because I responded point-by-point to your earlier post.

The why do you still write these rants? We agree on 80 - 90 percent on the topic with very specific differences usually based on our personal definitions. The way to stop talking past each other is to address the points we disagree on; when we narrow it down to a point by point discussion then we begin to understand specifically where we differ. I'll skip over what I agree with but I want to bring it back to that as we were close to narrowing it down.

The standard of beauty does not hinge on skin colour. It's likely that at opposite sides of the spectrum, too dark or too pale, there is less of a preference, but beyond this, this is trivial. Plus, it's been established that Chinese and Indian guys are the most rejected, but even still, if you're healthy and symmetrical your skin tone will not give you a disadvantage. Otherwise, people would reject any skin tone similar to Indian, but it's not the case.

It's not just skin color, it's European features, do you think it's co-incidence that Black women are wearing weaves and Asian women are getting blepharoplasty surgery? You really can't see how Hollywood and media has perpetuated this? It's not really their fault either as they are trying to make the most money and catering to the majority will get them that.

You pointed out that some of the richest people are white, and I pointed out that some of the most powerful are black. There are no limitations to an individual based on his skin colour today as mandated by the system, and it's only because there are more white people that we see this.

No I didn't I pointed out that ALL of the top 10 richest are white, Go through the richest in each state:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/th...he-richest-person-in-each-us-state-2014-10-17

And tell me how many minorities you see, these people did nothing wrong but the fact is historically white people are the richest and most powerful people in the west.

People have always been equal. Some people did not believe this, and they oppressed people of colour. Here is the thing: they were wrong. We know they were wrong, so why would we dignify it with a movement claiming the obvious? But okay, we acknowledge some people were treated poorly based on race and skin colour. Now, white people are beginning to receive the same treatment. Yeah, they're not slaves, but they're being accused, berated, and assigned guilt simply because of skin colour. Why is this acceptable enough that they are not allowed to take pride in the very thing they are being alienated for?

When did I say berating us was acceptable? The Pride movements should be meant to uplift the minorities and any berating or shaming of white people for nothing they did personally should not happen.

Black people were treated as inferior. We recognize it was wrong, but we understand that they were never actually inferior. White people are now being treated as inferior because of skin colour, in a much less sinister way, but the fact remains that they are. So why are white people not allowed to stand up for themselves and take pride in the thing that people berate them for? No individual is guilty because of the colour of his skin. Let people of colour have pride and pride movements. I think it's silly but I understand it. Let white people have pride, too. It's also silly, and may be less *warranted, but it's the same principle. The severity of the oppression is not comparable, but white people are currently being set apart by skin colour. To me, that fact is wrong enough that by your metric, they should be allowed to have pride, because even though we know we are all equal, this exception for white people, despite the increased racism we see towards them, makes me question whether we all actually believe we are equal.

I noticed you never mentioned a White Pride Movement, are you conceding that such a movement is unwarranted for us? I need this answered before I can address the rest of your point.

*You also have to remember that you arbitrarily decided that pride is only warranted when it is attached to some form of racism. Your whole case is built on a premise that I never fully accepted. People show pride in all sorts of arbitrary characteristics. Skin colour and heritage is no different. Which is why when some people are so adamant against equal treatment for white people, I question if they truly believe we are equal (not a passive aggressive dig at you, but I suspect some feel this). If I am proud to be right handed, no one would care, because they know being left handed is not inferior. At most it's silly. Let white people be silly without defining their actions as unacceptable, or worse.

No I said a Pride Movement is warranted, I can't believe you are not differentiating between the two.

 

[IDL]

This strange and new acceptable racism is fascinating. It definitely dehumanizes since it prevents people from identifying as individuals outside of a group based on a random characteristic. Who is racist again?

I find it more interesting that people just go along with it and never look into what is behind the Marxist politics. They just keep chanting 'equality' 'equality' and absorb the ideological conditioning to be used.

Are we to really believe the people who run our system just want 'equality'? Was that the case in the soviet union when the same rhetoric was employed? A laughable notion.

It doesn't take much digging to spot the snake oil

 

[cooks1]

If you think you deserve chafing, based on the colour of your skin, you've misunderstood what equality means.

I am not suggesting I or anyone else deserves chafe. I am simply positing that many white males are chafing and will continue to chafe as races and genders near societal parity. Simply put, many white males will falsely interpret their loss of societal advantage as a societal disadvantage and react accordingly.

 

[dontsnitch]

The why do you still write these rants? We agree on 80 - 90 percent on the topic with very specific differences usually based on our personal definitions. The way to stop talking past each other is to address the points we disagree on; when we narrow it down to a point by point discussion then we begin to understand specifically where we differ. I'll skip over what I agree with but I want to bring it back to that as we were close to narrowing it down.

We're never going to agree fully. I rant to throw it all out there.

It's not just skin color, it's European features, do you think it's co-incidence that Black women are wearing weaves and Asian women are getting blepharoplasty surgery? You really can't see how Hollywood and media has perpetuated this? It's not really their fault either as they are trying to make the most money and catering to the majority will get them that.

So we have the majority catering to the majority. It doesn't mean that POC are inferior and less beautiful. It's yet another obvious truth that doesn't need rallying behind. If you go to China, there will be Chinese people on television. It's not oppressive.

No I didn't I pointed out that ALL of the top 10 richest are white, Go through the richest in each state:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/th...he-richest-person-in-each-us-state-2014-10-17

And tell me how many minorities you see, these people did nothing wrong but the fact is historically white people are the richest and most powerful people in the west.

Again, the richest in China are Chinese. That's not racist, nor oppressive. You're obviously not saying they're rich because they're white, so it's only a correlation.

I don't think that Indian guy needs to be

But is it as unacceptable as white people?

When did I say berating us was acceptable? The Pride movements should be meant to uplift the minorities and any berating or shaming of white people for nothing they did personally should not happen.

Right, it shouldn't happen, but it does. Since it does, they should be allowed to express pride in that that they are berated for.

I noticed you never mentioned a White Pride Movement, are you conceding that such a movement is unwarranted for us? I need this answered before I can address the rest of your point.

Given the current climate of race-relations, where white people are increasingly blamed for being white, I think a white pride movement should be allowed if black/brown pride movements are allowed.

No I said a Pride Movement is warranted, I can't believe you are not differentiating between the two.

My premise allows for both to be acceptable.

 

[dontsnitch]

I find it more interesting that people just go along with it and never look into what is behind the Marxist politics. They just keep chanting 'equality' 'equality' and absorb the ideological conditioning to be used.

Are we to really believe the people who run our system just want 'equality'? Was that the case in the soviet union? A laughable notion.

It doesn't take much digging to spot the snake oil

I'll believe they want equality when Israel floods their country with Middle Eastern and African refugees, instead of paying them to leave like they recently did.

I thought all cultures are equal and borders are racist? It's why they're conservative at home and liberal abroad.

 

[IDL]

I'll believe they want equality when Israel floods their country with Middle Eastern and African refugees, instead of paying them to leave like they recently did.

I thought all cultures are equal and borders are racist? It's why they're conservative at home and liberal abroad.

haha there are revealing double standards all over the place, that's for sure.

The doublethink people are required to absorb is off the charts.

 

[dontsnitch]

I am not suggesting I or anyone else deserves chafe. I am simply positing that many white males are chafing and will continue to chafe as races and genders near societal parity. Simply put, many white males will falsely interpret their loss of societal advantage as a societal disadvantage and react accordingly.

Many are being blamed for the colour of their skin and for living in a place where they are the majority. You want equality for all races? The answer is to treat races equally. Don't berate them for what their ancestors did or because they are the majority. As if lower and middle class working people are can be distinguished by colour more than class.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

We're never going to agree fully. I rant to throw it all out there.

What good does it do? It was out there on your previous posts and I addressed them.

So we have the majority catering to the majority. It doesn't mean that POC are inferior and less beautiful. It's yet another obvious truth that doesn't need rallying behind. If you go to China, there will be Chinese people on television. It's not oppressive.

Precisely and a lot of POC need that affirmation, it may seem silly to us but we're not the ones living it every day. Why do you bring up China when we are talking about the west?

Again, the richest in China are Chinese. That's not racist, nor oppressive. You're obviously not saying they're rich because they're white, so it's only a correlation.

What does China have to do with the Pride Movements in the west? I'm saying that White people historically have had an advantage in the social/political/economic systems in the west and that is a big reason we see the disparity.

But is it as unacceptable as white people?

That's an economic disparity that doesn't exist with the brown guy, is everything else equal?

Right, it shouldn't happen, but it does. Since it does, they should be allowed to express pride in that that they are berated for.

Express Pride? White people should be able to say, it's wasn't me personally that created this system and we are all equal.

Given the current climate of race-relations, where white people are increasingly blamed for being white, I think a white pride movement should be allowed if black/brown pride movements are allowed.

Please define what that white pride movement entails.

My premise allows for both to be acceptable.

Cool, my response will depend on your constraints for your white pride movement.

 

[dontsnitch]

What good does it do? It was out there on your previous posts and I addressed them.

It's not an empty rant, they're my views on this topic.

Precisely and a lot of POC need that affirmation, it may seem silly to us but we're not the ones living it every day. Why do you bring up China when we are talking about the west?

Remember not to assume...

I bring up China because it shows how silly the same scenario is when it's expressed about other cultures. Also, the sentiment that POC need affirmation is a bit insulting.

What does China have to do with the Pride Movements in the west? I'm saying that White people historically have had an advantage in the social/political/economic systems in the west and that is a big reason we see the disparity.

We see a disparity in Asia because they're the majority so white people should be allowed pride movements in Asia. But a historical advantage does not give your argument any credence. You seamlessly jump from disparity, to allowing pride only for some races. It doesn't follow.

That's an economic disparity that doesn't exist with the brown guy, is everything else equal?

Is everything else equal? We are talking about a generalization... It's why it's stupid to not allow a white person (or a brown person) to not show pride based on generalizations.

Express Pride? White people should be able to say, it's wasn't me personally that created this system and we are all equal.



Please define what that white pride movement entails.



Cool, my response will depend on your constraints for your white pride movement.

We've already done this. You're making a greater differentiation in these than I am.

Pride movements emphasize equality. It makes sense for black people to have a pride movement, though it makes less sense with each day. White people are now being discriminated against, so it makes sense that they should emphasize equality, and it doesn't matter, if as a group, they are the majority, or more successful, or seen as beautiful, because we're supposed to understand that these things are mere correlations and that everyone is actually equal.

How does your average lower class slob take solace in the fact that because we label people into random groups based on arbitrary characteristics, that he can't defend himself when people tell him he's white and thus worthy of criticism? If he wants to take part in a movement that says white people are not a scourge, then I do not consider it immoral.

I think you have to accept that we've been going in circles for like a week now, across two different threads. We're not going to agree. I don't even agree with your initial premise, but I think that even if we accept it, the conclusions should be different than we see, namely, pride in one's race becomes extremely relative to geography.

 

[cooks1]

Many are being blamed for the colour of their skin and for living in a place where they are the majority. You want equality for all races? The answer is to treat races equally. Don't berate them for what their ancestors did or because they are the majority. As if lower and middle class working people are can be distinguished by colour more than class.

I am trying to remember the last time I was blamed for being white. Yeah. That's never happened to me. Not saying it's never happened to someone. But it's never happened to me, and I have never seen it happen to anyone else. Never even seen it on the news where people are being blamed for simply being white. The only place I know of where white people are truly a persecuted minority is prisons.

And by the way, treating all races equally is NOT how you achieve racial equality. We tried that once and it was an abysmal failure.

The way you have racial equality is by marginalizing the entire concept of race. Having one, human race. And the younger generations all over the world are doing this for us by travelling the globe more, giving fewer and fewer shits about race, sticking their dicks in and opening their vaginas for all the colors of the rainbow, having racial mutts for kids, and becoming increasingly INTOLERANT of racism and prejudice in all it's forms. All we have to do is stay out of their way in this regard.

 

[n...not crazy]

This is just internet and college stuff. Nobody who actually contributes to society feels this way - nobody.

 

[dontsnitch]

I am trying to remember the last time I was blamed for being white. Yeah. That's never happened to me. Not saying it's never happened to someone. But it's never happened to me, and I have never seen it happen to anyone else. Never even seen it on the news where people are being blamed for simply being white. The only place I know of where white people are truly a persecuted minority is prisons.

And by the way, treating all races equally is NOT how you achieve racial equality. We tried that once and it was an abysmal failure.

The way you have racial equality is by marginalizing the entire concept of race. Having one, human race. And the younger generations all over the world are doing this for us by travelling the globe more, giving fewer and fewer shits about race, sticking their dicks in and opening their vaginas for all the colors of the rainbow, and becoming increasingly INTOLERANT of racism and prejudice in all it's forms. All we have to do is stay out of their way in this regard.

Your anecdotal evidence doesn't strengthen the argument against the very real concept of white privilege, and how white people are blamed and generalized for their skin colour. It's being taught in schools and spread by the media. White people are the only people you're allowed to be racist towards. Enough is enough. Don't champion equality and then look the other way when racism occurs.

Marginalizing the concept of race and treating races equal are not mutually exclusive ideas.

 

[cooks1]

Your anecdotal evidence doesn't strengthen the argument against the very real concept of white privilege, and how white people are blamed and generalized for their skin colour. It's being taught in schools and spread by the media. White people are the only people you're allowed to be racist towards. Enough is enough. Don't champion equality and then look the other way when racism occurs.

Marginalizing the concept of race and treating races equal are not mutually exclusive ideas.

Starting 'white pride' groups sound like marginalizing the concept of race, does it?

I will be happy to confront white bias when I see it. And I spend a pretty big chunk of my time in industrial downtown Jacksonville, where I assure you I am a minority. So I will keep an eye out.

By the way, making a blanket statement that white people, particularly white males, have had a pretty substantial societal advantage (basic tenet of white privilege) in this country since it's inception is not a racist statement towards white people. It's just a historical fact. A person does not need to infer judgment on themselves for that.

Not that one ever has, but if a person made that statement to me, I would take no offense. I would simply acknowledge the truth in the statement and go about my business. All I can do is guide my own actions and those of my kids.

 

[dontsnitch]

Starting 'white pride' groups sound like marginalizing the concept of race, does it?

I will be happy to confront white bias when I see it. And I spend a pretty big chunk of my time in industrial downtown Jacksonville, where I assure you I am a minority. So I will keep an eye out.

By the way, making a blanket statement that white people, particularly white males, have had a pretty substantial societal advantage (basic tenet of white privilege) in this country since it's inception is not a racist statement towards white people. It's just a historical fact. A person does not need to infer judgment on themselves for that.

Not that one ever has, but if a person made that statement to me, I would take no offense. I would simply acknowledge the truth in the statement and go about my business. All I can do is guide my own actions and those of my kids.

I never argued to start pride groups. I argued, that if you allow one, you should allow all. Otherwise, obviously, you are showing prejudice.

Yes, it is a fact. It becomes racist when, by looking at a white person, you claim you can know about his life as an individual, and treat him by that generalization you've made of the group.

Whether you are bothered by racism or not is irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

It's not an empty rant, they're my views on this topic.

Cool, hopefully we can be more organized in the future as it will be easier for both of us.

Remember not to assume...

I bring up China because it shows how silly the same scenario is when it's expressed about other cultures. Also, the sentiment that POC need affirmation is a bit insulting.

What are you talking about, so you're comparing the European situation in China to how the blacks have been treated in the West? Didn't Europeans attempt to colonize Chinese territory with Hong Kong and Macau? How have they been a historically oppressed group in Asia? Most of the Europeans in China are wealthy expats, how is this equivalent to the minority struggle in the west where most were descendants of slaves? If anything is silly, it’s this false equivalence.

How is POC affirmation insulting? It’s acknowledged that they started on an un-even playing field and should understand that they are equal to the group in power.

We see a disparity in Asia because they're the majority so white people should be allowed pride movements in Asia. But a historical advantage does not give your argument any credence. You seamlessly jump from disparity, to allowing pride only for some races. It doesn't follow.

What is the history of Europeans in Asia and their societies and how have they been oppressed? In China what are the numbers even?

Is everything else equal? We are talking about a generalization... It's why it's stupid to not allow a white person (or a brown person) to not show pride based on generalizations.

I’m not even sure what this means.

We've already done this. You're making a greater differentiation in these than I am.

Ok great, we have different definitions for Pride Movement. This is the heart of our disagreement

Pride movements emphasize equality. It makes sense for black people to have a pride movement, though it makes less sense with each day. White people are now being discriminated against, so it makes sense that they should emphasize equality, and it doesn't matter, if as a group, they are the majority, or more successful, or seen as beautiful, because we're supposed to understand that these things are mere correlations and that everyone is actually equal.

If this is just a correlation in wealth, why isn't the wealth distribution showing the population correlation?

White 62%
Black 12%
Hispanic 18%
Asian American 6%

What is the percentage of white people in China? Does their wealth distribution match this ratio?

How does your average lower class slob take solace in the fact that because we label people into random groups based on arbitrary characteristics, that he can't defend himself when people tell him he's white and thus worthy of criticism? If he wants to take part in a movement that says white people are not a scourge, then I do not consider it immoral.

If that's your definition of Pride movement then I will agree with you, if white people want to say:

"Look, what happened in the past is the past please don't blame me for it, we are all equal today" I would be fine with it. I wouldn't use the term "White Pride" though as it has too many links to the white supremacy movements.

I think you have to accept that we've been going in circles for like a week now, across two different threads. We're not going to agree. I don't even agree with your initial premise, but I think that even if we accept it, the conclusions should be different than we see, namely, pride in one's race becomes extremely relative to geography.

Pride in your race becomes more prevalent when you feel you're being attacked or held back because of it. From dealing with you in the past I'm fairly certain that pride in your race was inconsequential from an identity stand point. It's only important now because you feel you're being attacked over it.

 

[Armbars]

I'm am an white snail. I have an opium

 

[dontsnitch]

Cool, hopefully we can be more organized in the future as it will be easier for both of us.



What are you talking about, so you're comparing the European situation in China to how the blacks have been treated in the West? Didn't Europeans attempt to colonize Chinese territory with Hong Kong and Macau? How have they been a historically oppressed group in Asia? Most of the Europeans in China are wealthy expats, how is this equivalent to the minority struggle in the west where most were descendants of slaves? If anything is silly, it’s this false equivalence.

This is the exact point I made to argue that Brown pride doesn't make sense in America. You're also inexplicably linking the ability to show pride with ancient history. Imagine telling a minority in Asia that they cannot show pride because Europeans tried to colonize Macau. It's not a logical conclusion.

How is POC affirmation insulting? It’s acknowledged that they started on an un-even playing field and should understand that they are equal to the group in power.

It's condescending because it implies that they are so fragile they need reinforcing, and it's such an obvious truth that it's doubly condescending to fight for their right to affirm axiomatic principles.

What is the history of Europeans in Asia and their societies and how have they been oppressed? In China what are the numbers even?

I don't know what Asian demographics are, other than knowing that they're made up of Asians. It's not only about active oppression according to you, since the majority naturally reinforces the majority, and that produces oppression.

I’m not even sure what this means.



Ok great, we have different definitions for Pride Movement. This is the heart of our disagreement

I'd say that our definition is the same, but you're putting extra weight on when it's acceptable.

If this is just a correlation in wealth, why isn't the wealth distribution showing the population correlation?

White 62%
Black 12%
Hispanic 18%
Asian American 6%

What is the percentage of white people in China? Does their wealth distribution match this ratio?

As I just pointed out in another thread, if you want to dissect the "white" demographic, you're going to find it is not accurately stated. I let your list go earlier because it's going to further complicate things, but it consists largely of Jews. The top 1%, the Forbes list, is disproportionately made up of Jews. If anything this points to Jewish privilege, not white privilege.

If that's your definition of Pride movement then I will agree with you, if white people want to say:

"Look, what happened in the past is the past please don't blame me for it, we are all equal today" I would be fine with it. I wouldn't use the term "White Pride" though as it has too many links to the white supremacy movements.

I agree it has questionable connotations, but as two reasonable people, we can discard that objection while determining it's objective acceptableness. If you want to argue against it for simple optics, that would be another conversation.

Pride in your race becomes more prevalent when you feel you're being attacked or held back because of it. From dealing with you in the past I'm fairly certain that pride in your race was inconsequential from an identity stand point. It's only important now because you feel you're being attacked over it.

Hang on, are you still assuming I'm white? I've not revealed my ethnicity because it should be irrelevant to my argument, and anything I say can be refuted without questioning my motivations. I could be some white power Aryan racist who considers everyone inferior, but unless you can find something in my argument itself, it seems out of place to conclude my stance is based on my sense of self worth.

 

[dontsnitch]

If you really want to know my ethnicity, I can PM you. I don't like the idea of the entire forum looking at my posts through the lens of race, especially how everything is about race these days, but I don't mind telling people who want to know.