Arrested, Jailed, and Charged With a Felony. For Voting. —North Carolina

[King in the North]

War room,

I wanted to get your opinions on this. There are a lot of directions we can go with this one, but we can start with the basic question of should felons lose their right to vote while they remain on parole/probation/some form of community control sanction or punishment?

According to the article, 441 felons illegally voted in NC. Though only one county is pursuing these cases. There is a racial element to this story, because the people being charged are African-American.

NYT only gives you so many free articles a month so I’ll try to fill you guys in with some quotes. If you read the article you can get a more personal side of the story, as it focuses on the defendants.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/02/us/arrested-voting-north-carolina.html

Mr. Sellars, 44, is one of a dozen people in Alamance County in North Carolina who have been charged with voting illegally in the 2016 presidential election. All were on probation or parole for felony convictions, which in North Carolina and many other states disqualifies a person from voting. If convicted, they face up to two years in prison.

While election experts and public officials across the country say there is no evidence of widespread voter fraud, local prosecutors and state officials in North Carolina, Texas, Kansas, Idaho and other states have sought to send a tough message by filing criminal charges against the tiny fraction of people who are caught voting illegally.

“That’s the law,” said Pat Nadolski, the Republican district attorney in Alamance County. “You can’t do it. If we have clear cases, we’re going to prosecute.”

After the state audit that found 441 felons had voted, North Carolina’s Board of Elections and Ethics Enforcement changed the layout of the voter forms, adding check boxes to make them easier to understand. The board said it was also working with courts and probation officials to make sure people are aware that they lose their voting rights while serving a felony sentence and probation.

Activists are now worried that the fear of prosecution may suppress black turnout in the midterm elections. North Carolina lawmakers have put a constitutional amendment on November ballots that would change the state constitution to require voter identification.

And in case we have any legal scholars who wanted to know the required mental state for the crime (they’re fucked).

The case against the 12 voters in Alamance County — a patchwork of small towns about an hour west of the state’s booming Research Triangle — is unusual for the sheer number of people charged at once. And because nine of the defendants are black, the case has touched a nerve in a state with a history of suppressing African-American votes.

In North Carolina, people can be found guilty of voting as felons even if they did not know their status or did not mean to break any voting laws. This spring, lawmakers tried to pass a bill that would have added intent as an element of felon-voting crimes, but the bill died.

I thought this could stir up some good discussion.

 

[bushman505]

No, there should be no long term reprocussions for being a convicted felon.

 

[glenwo2]

As stupid and idiotic as that law is, it's still the Law and it must be followed.

If you're a felon and take such a risk, then everything and anything that happens afterward is on your head and I can't sympathize.

 

[Fawlty]

Besides getting rid of the completely unnecessary stripping of voting rights, this is not "felonious" behavior. It's not even fraudulent behavior. I can't in good conscience lock people up for voting. Would gladly nullify any jury case.

 

[King in the North]

I mean I am not a big fan of that law, but even more ridiculous is that someone would risk prison time to sneak a vote. Can't sympathize with stupid.

That isn’t what happened though; it seems like there was simply confusion, not an intent to sneak a vote:

After the state audit that found 441 felons had voted, North Carolina’s Board of Elections and Ethics Enforcement changed the layout of the voter forms, adding check boxes to make them easier to understand. The board said it was also working with courts and probation officials to make sure people are aware that they lose their voting rights while serving a felony sentence and probation.

In separate interviews, five of the defendants in Alamance County said their votes were an unwitting mistake — a product of not understanding the voter forms they signed and not knowing the law.

They said they believed they were allowed to vote because election workers let them fill out voter registration and eligibility forms, then handed them ballots. They said they never would have voted if anyone had told them they were ineligible.

Like other voters across North Carolina, each of the Alamance 12 would have been required to sign a form saying they were eligible to vote and were not serving a felony sentence. But the defendants said they did not remember filling out any forms beyond the ballots.

“People get confused,” said John Carella, an attorney with the Southern Coalition for Social Justice, which is representing Ms. Brown and four other defendants. The group has also filed a motion in court arguing that North Carolina’s original 1901 law barring felons from voting is unconstitutional because it is steeped in racist efforts to keep African-Americans from voting.

 

[Teppodama]

So, where there any other minority or white felons also found to have committed this violation or did they all just happen to be African American? After all, if you're going to push a racist edge to the story there should be some clear cut examples where felons of other racial types where allowed a pass on their illegal vote.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

Taking away the right to vote after you've completed your sentence and paid your debt to society is wrong. People should be writing congress about it.

 

[Badger67]

No voting from jail. Once released, vote.

 

[glenwo2]

Taking away the right to vote after you've completed your sentence and paid your debt to society is wrong. People should be writing congress about it.

Except for one thing :

All were on probation or parole for felony convictions,

He was on Probation more likely so he had YET to "pay his debt to society".

 

[King in the North]

So, where there any other minority or white felons also found to have committed this violation or did they all just happen to be African American? After all, if you're going to push a racist edge to the story there should be some clear cut examples where felons of other racial types where allowed a pass on their illegal vote.

The article doesn’t provide any information of the 441 mentioned people,other than the 12 mentioned, all African-American, because only one county in the state is pressing charges.

That county is Alamance county:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alamance_County,_North_Carolina

19% African-American.

I think the “racial edge” is that these laws disproportionately impact African-Americans. So much that one could argue the purpose of them is to prevent or discourage African-American voting.

 

[bushman505]

Felons are generally scum. How many are really going to get out and vote???

 

[JamesRussler]

No, there should be no long term reprocussions for being a convicted felon.

We owe it to our felons for their noble service. After all, they paid their debts to society, so we should pay them back. It is the right thing to do. We owe it to them. God bless 'em all.

 

[bushman505]

We owe it to our felons for their noble service. After all, they paid their debts to society, so we should pay them back. It is the right thing to do. We owe it to them. God bless 'em all.

Yes, in fact, not only should we restore all of their rights, we should give them special privileges.

 

[Teppodama]

The article doesn’t provide any information of the 441 mentioned people,other than the 12 mentioned, all African-American, because only one county in the state is pressing charges.

That county is Alamance county:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alamance_County,_North_Carolina

19% African-American.

I think the “racial edge” is that these laws disproportionately impact African-Americans. So much that one could argue the purpose of them is to prevent or discourage African-American voting.

So any law that might disproportionately affects a given demographic should be considered racists regardless of whether it's pursued equally against anyone breaking? Seems a straightforward enough law. If you're a felon you can't vote and the law makes no distinction what your racial type may be. If it's not being enforced that way, that's completely a different issue and yes an example of a racist one.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

Except for one thing :



He was on Probation more likely so he had YET to "pay his debt to society".

Voting is a civic duty. Probation, parole, does not matter in my opinion. Once released, everyone should be able to be a part of our electorate.

 

[glenwo2]

Voting is a civic duty. Probation, parole, does not matter in my opinion. Once released, everyone should be able to be a part of our electorate.

Oh I understand but based on the law over there, he wasn't yet allowed to since he was still serving his sentence.

 

[King in the North]

So any law that might disproportionately affects a given demographic should be considered racists regardless of whether it's pursued equally against anyone breaking? Seems a straightforward enough law. If you're a felon you can't vote and the law makes no distinction what your racial type may be. If it's not being enforced that way, that's completely a different issue and yes an example of a racist one.

There are a lot of problems with what you just presented.

Your first point; unless you believe people of color to be inheritely more likely to commit crimes, yes, that would be an example of racism. Our entire criminal justice system is racist. This isn’t news. It disproportionately punishes African-Americans at alarming rates. We put an unbelievable number of young black men behind bars every year. It isn’t working. But that isn’t what this thread is about. That is an entirely different issue that would be a headache to get into and a good answer to that problem may not exist.


Next, the problem is it isn’t straight forward enough. Are you really up to date on every law in your state? If you say yes, you’re a liar. None of the examples in this article had any intent to violate any laws, they simply thought they were exercising their right. The law is written in a way that any knowledge or intent is not required for a conviction. Does that not seem like an injustice to you? What are you really detering with a law like that?

Regardless of the intent of law makers, or how the law is enforced, this law would seem to be aimed to disenfranchise African-Americans. That is the outcome.

 

[JamesRussler]

Yes, in fact, not only should we restore all of their rights, we should give them special privileges.

Exactly. We should give them Netflix and Starbucks for life. It's the least we could do.

 

[JamesRussler]

So, where there any other minority or white felons also found to have committed this violation or did they all just happen to be African American? After all, if you're going to push a racist edge to the story there should be some clear cut examples where felons of other racial types where allowed a pass on their illegal vote.

It's not that law disproportionately affects black people – the problem is that it disproportionately does not affect white people. Ergo, if police would make a sincere effort to lock up more white offenders, the problem can be solved.

 

[RockstarChris]

why would someone want to vote? its like going to the dmv except you get a little american flag sticker after waiting for hours. no thanks. he can have my right to vote