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Technique Are shorter guys harder to take down?

Thats not the case bruh.
The #1 criteria will always be skill.

physical atributes bring natural advantages or disadvantages.
My point is exactly the opposite of what your saying, I'm literally pointing how you can take down shorter guys with other techniques besides single/double legs .
Yeah I’m not disagreeing with you, I’m disagreeing with whoever is saying short guys are hard to takedown or vice versa

Both have advantages and disadvantages, a great wrestler is gonna figure out what works for his body type, both can be just as effective, it just depends on the athlete/technique

Again, not criticizing you, but if you look out for it, you’ll notice people who haven’t trained always bring up physical attributes because that’s all they can relate with/understand… so when I see that brought up I kinda roll my eyes because it’s pretty uninteresting for the most part, but it does have its place it’s just waaay over talked about
 
Myth or truth?

I’ve seen this come up over and over, especially in the talks about Topuria vs Charles and Topuria vs Makhachev. “Oh, short guys are super hard to take down”, “center of gravity this, center of gravity that”, and so on...

I can agree when we’re talking about those classic takedown entries that shoot straight for the legs, like single legs and double legs — yeah, being shorter probably makes it trickier. But does that really apply to every kind of takedown?

I’ve been doing Muay Thai for a few years now, and I’ve been learning judo for a couple of Months. And From what I’ve experienced with clinch-based takedowns, being shorter doesn’t really seem like an advantage. That whole “center of gravity” thing doesn’t really help when it comes to staying on your feet. Height makes it way easier to reach the right pressure points, break posture, and guide the opponent’s body to the ground. Controlling the elbows, controlling the head to steer the body, and setting up foot sweeps or trips, all of that feels way smoother when you’ve got the height advantage.

So talking about my own experience, i think that is a myth.

What you guys think about ?
Yes
They are harder to take down and certain subs are harder
Period - anyone who say different has never tyraned
 
Harder to catch with any takedown that requires you to get under their center of gravity - yes, provided they don't get lazy with their stance. The only exception I can think of right now is the suplex, which is actually easier to pull if you're the same height or taller in my experience. Going down on the knees can be an equalizer in this regard, though - be it the classic shot or kneeling turning throws. That's what caught the Japanese Judokas off-guard back in the 60ies when the SAMBists first entered the scene. Usually, taller guys are better off finishing those on their knees, though, rather than getting up - it takes more time and carries more risk of being countered.
Not harder to take down with anything that doesn't require you to get under their COG (although, being more limited for options can be a downside). Snapdowns, slide-bys, throwbys, foot sweeps etc. still work the same.
Easier to control in certain tie-ups like 2-on-1 and especially double underhook. Get a strong double under on a shorter guy and you can lift him right off his feet - that's why the suplex still works so well.

It can be educational to watch some especially tall wrestlers and Judokas at work. For example, Buvaisar Saitiev at 6" in the 74 kg category wrestled against shorter, stockier guys almost his entire career.
 
I’m a big fan of that gif by the way


But Tim couldn’t do that to any of the wrestlers he fought. Use a toss like that

Losses to Phil Davis, Munoz, Henderson, and Herman. All wrestlers that can nullify the Judo’s

Agree with you about wrestling (or any grappling style) working for any body type, but the gif and your comment doesn't support wrestling "nullifying Judo." Boetsch was a HS stand out who wrestled college D2 while David Heath (guy he's flinging against the cage) I don't believe had a formal wrestling background. IIRC Rogan and company called the finish a "Barbarian bitch toss" or something lol.

The others all had higher wrestling pedigrees than Boetsch except Herman who had been an unheralded HS wrestler, but none of these guys had a Judo background. And of course they fought each other in MMA, not wrestling or Judo.
 
Agree with you about wrestling (or any grappling style) working for any body type, but the gif and your comment doesn't support wrestling "nullifying Judo." Boetsch was a HS stand out who wrestled college D2 while David Heath (guy he's flinging against the cage) I don't believe had a formal wrestling background. IIRC Rogan and company called the finish a "Barbarian bitch toss" or something lol.

The others all had higher wrestling pedigrees than Boetsch except Herman who had been an unheralded HS wrestler, but none of those guys had a Judo background. And of course all those fights were in MMA, not wrestling or Judo.


You know how easy it is for good wrestlers to transition to Judo, and do extremely well?

Tim was one. And like I told the other guy about that gif, Heath isn’t a wrestler and the “bitch-toss” would not have worked against a guy with competent hips

I have several friends that were wrestlers in high-school, and a bit of college, that decided to try mma and jiu-jitsu. They ended up doing local judo tourneys to stay “busy” and a couple of them became national champs with extremely limited Judo instructions

Ive trained with J-Flo (Justin Flores) who was Rhonda’s olympic coach and partner. He is an outstanding Judoka. I wonder why he is so proficient and dominant with his judo? He wrestled for University of Nebraska D-1

Im not knocking Judo but here’s the deal. Hip tosses and trips usually fade-out in folk-style wrestling at the high-school level as they begin not to work anymore cause at that level, kids have extremely competent hips, and understand not letting opponent get “under” you
 
Im not knocking Judo but here’s the deal. Hip tosses and trips usually fade-out in folk-style wrestling at the high-school level as they begin not to work anymore cause at that level, kids have extremely competent hips, and understand not letting opponent get “under” you
Not necessarily. Hip throws and foot sweeps can work just fine on the international level. Makhmudov for example uses headlock hip throws as one of his two or three go-tos in the standup, and Steve Mocco (who cross-trained in Judo a lot) was famous for his foot sweeps. The Beloglazov brothers teach variations of Osoto Gari as well, which is one of the Judo techniques you see rarely in wrestling, and Nurali Aliev (leopardik on youtube) even teaches Hane Goshi (only time I think I saw that in wrestling). Of course, set-ups and tie-ups need to be adjusted radically for the lack of Gi, the different stances etc, and arguably all the Judo techniques that can work in a wrestling ruleset are already in there somewhere with the relevant details on tie-ups and set-ups - although they are not ncessarily taught at every school - so trying to bring them in from Judo is a bit like re-inventing the wheel imho. Using modifed Judo for BJJ is maybe a bit more logical, because the ruleset puts more constraints on the technique variations commonly used in wrestling.
 
It depends they have a lower center of gravity and if they have good speed to go with it it makes them harder to catch in a clinch or any type of takedown. Being taller offers so many advantages though it is just not as easy to take a taller guy down in my situations. If the guy is really short you should probably just try to knock the guy out with a kick or a strike rather than try to take them down.
 
You know how easy it is for good wrestlers to transition to Judo, and do extremely well?

Yes. Especially if we're talking pre-2013 Judo before leg grabs were banned. I had a solid but unheralded HS wrestling background but switched to Judo in college while continuing to wrestle club. My best TD was a hi-C which I hit successfully in all rulesets. Back then you could get away with "wrestling in a gi." I could medal at local and regional comps in freestyle/greco/Judo but always got my ass handed to me by the best guys. I had exactly one win across two senior nationals in Judo.


Tim was one. And like I told the other guy about that gif, Heath isn’t a wrestler and the “bitch-toss” would not have worked against a guy with competent hips

I have several friends that were wrestlers in high-school, and a bit of college, that decided to try mma and jiu-jitsu. They ended up doing local judo tourneys to stay “busy” and a couple of them became national champs with extremely limited Judo instructions

Ive trained with J-Flo (Justin Flores) who was Rhonda’s olympic coach and partner. He is an outstanding Judoka. I wonder why he is so proficient and dominant with his judo? He wrestled for University of Nebraska D-1

Im not knocking Judo but here’s the deal. Hip tosses and trips usually fade-out in folk-style wrestling at the high-school level as they begin not to work anymore cause at that level, kids have extremely competent hips, and understand not letting opponent get “under” you

Just because the U.S. is top-3 globally in wrestling and ass in Judo, doesn't mean wrestling is more effective than Judo. The reality is most "Judo" guys in the U.S. suck at actual Judo and most of us can name the very few outliers on 1 or 2 hands. But you can find high level wrestlers in just about every state. Internationally, Judo is at least as popular as wrestling and arguably more so, especially in countries where Judo is a scholastic sport like wrestling is in the U.S.

Justin Flores is a few years younger than me, but he also came up during the leg-grab era and is a pretty clear case of Judo making him great at wrestling, not the other way around. But of course that is semantics because grappling is grappling, it's all the same shit. You call it a lateral drop, I call it ura nage. You call it uchi mata, I call it a hip whizzer. Blah blah blah morote gari.

It's also worth noting that the U.S. style of wrestling has a hard on for lower body TDs. Blast doubles, hi Cs, ankle picks, sweep singles. But our best guys specializing in those TDs doesn't mean upper body turning throws are less effective. It does however, explain why we suck at Greco as badly as we do at Judo.

Many of the best wrestlers outside the U.S. use a lot of "Judo style" throws and trips because their athletes grow up cross-training wrestling, Judo and/or Sambo with high level instruction in each of those rulesets.
 
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Not necessarily. Hip throws and foot sweeps can work just fine on the international level. Makhmudov for example uses headlock hip throws as one of his two or three go-tos in the standup, and Steve Mocco (who cross-trained in Judo a lot) was famous for his foot sweeps. The Beloglazov brothers teach variations of Osoto Gari as well, which is one of the Judo techniques you see rarely in wrestling, and Nurali Aliev (leopardik on youtube) even teaches Hane Goshi (only time I think I saw that in wrestling). Of course, set-ups and tie-ups need to be adjusted radically for the lack of Gi, the different stances etc, and arguably all the Judo techniques that can work in a wrestling ruleset are already in there somewhere with the relevant details on tie-ups and set-ups - although they are not ncessarily taught at every school - so trying to bring them in from Judo is a bit like re-inventing the wheel imho. Using modifed Judo for BJJ is maybe a bit more logical, because the ruleset puts more constraints on the technique variations commonly used in wrestling.

You see it more in international wrestling (free-style) as those countries have strong judo fundamentals and have incorporated the arts for many many eras

That’s why I made sure to high-light *folk style
Yes. Especially if we're talking pre-2013 Judo before leg grabs were banned. I had a solid but unheralded HS wrestling background but switched to Judo in college while continuing to wrestle club. My best TD was a hi-C which I hit successfully in all rulesets. Back then Judo was like wrestling in a gi. I could medal at local and regional comps in freestyle/greco/Judo but always got my ass handed to me by the best guys. I had exactly one win across two senior nationals I did in Judo.




Just because the U.S. is top-3 globally in wrestling and complete ass in Judo, doesn't mean wrestling is more effective than Judo. The reality is most "Judo" guys in the U.S. suck at actual Judo and most of us can name the very few outliers on 1 or 2 hands. But you can find high level wrestlers in just about every state. Internationally, Judo is at least as popular as wrestling and arguably more so, especially in countries where Judo is a scholastic sport like wrestling is in the U.S.

Justin Flores is only a few years younger than me, but he came up during the leg-grab era and is a pretty clear case of Judo making him great at wrestling, not the other way around. But of course that is semantics because grappling is grappling, it's all the same shit. You call it a lateral drop, I call it ura nage. You call it uchi mata, I call it a hip whizzer. Blah blah blah morote gari.

It's also worth noting that the U.S. style of wrestling has a hard on for lower body TDs. Blast doubles, hi Cs, ankle picks, sweep singles. But our best guys specializing in those TDs doesn't mean upper body turning throws are less effective. It does however, explain why we suck at Greco as badly as we do at Judo.

Many of the best wrestlers outside the U.S. incorporate a lot of "Judo style" throws and trips into their game and that's because in places like Dagestan, kids grow up cross-training wrestling, Judo and Sambo with high level competitors and coaches in all those rulesets.


Good post.

In American wrestling, you just don’t see much judo. And American folk-style wrestling is becoming more and more elite

I have kid in youth wrestling and we go compete every weekend once folk-style season starts in Aug/Sep through to the state-qualifiers in Feb and state tournaments in March

My son trains at an elite program which started in the art of Judo. Its a judo/jiu-jitsu gym that pumps out nationally ranked wrestlers. The head coach is also the local high-school wrestling coach and made the school top-10 in the state. He pumps out D-1 talent and all four sons of his wrestled or currently wrestle D-1. Check out Michigan’s Beau and Brock

Theres a lot of vid on these boys and their older brothers who wrestled at U of Oklahoma

These kids grew up since diapers doing judo, BJJ, and wrestling. You don’t see them do much of traditional judo in wrestling competitions. These boys have some of the slickest wrestling Ive ever seen live. Brock got bronze at the last U20 in worlds (Turkey) losing only one match the Russian who won gold




Im not a judo-hater. Ive been doing jiu-jitsu for over 20yrs and did mma for almost 8yrs competing with opportunities to train with a lot of various high-level people. I believe the essence of judo lives in all of the grappling arts



I love this image and all it represents



1748193995634.jpeg
 
It's also worth noting that the U.S. style of wrestling has a hard on for lower body TDs. Blast doubles, hi Cs, ankle picks, sweep singles. But our best guys specializing in those TDs doesn't mean upper body turning throws are less effective. It does however, explain why we suck at Greco as badly as we do at Judo.

Many of the best wrestlers outside the U.S. use a lot of "Judo style" throws and trips because their athletes grow up cross-training wrestling, Judo and/or Sambo with high level instruction in each of those rulesets.
Greco these days is mostly "pretending to be active in the stand-up" and then scoring in parterre. There are only very few outliers who have reliable takedowns from stand-up, and if so, rarely more than 3. For example, Frank Stäbler had a very successful run at a number of World Championships, and basically the only move he hit standing in international competiton was the arm drag. He did have other throws of course, in national competitions he'd even hit flying squirrels, but he seems to have considered those too risky for bigger championships.

As for "Judo style" throws in international wrestling, I'd say that for the largest part, they are variations uncommon or even illegal in Judo (Kani Basami, Kawazu Gake) or were introduced to Judo from other styles to begin with (Mongolian Uchi Mata).
Cross training is actually not that common anymore in my experience and from what I heard (I wrestled in Germany and Austria, but had coaches from a number of places in the former Soviet Union and teammates as well as opponents from all over Europe, the entire Caucasus area and even Mongolia), partly because the rule changes in the various disciplines are aimed to make them more distinct from one another. I only met three guys who also did Judo or Sambo (not counting myself) over my whole career. It's more common for someone to quit one thing and take up another, but recently, BJJ has soaked up most of these people. However, there was more crossover up to the 80ies and 90ies, and the various stylistic influences have blended into the main styles to the degree where it's sometimes almost impossible to say who got what from where.
 
You see it more in international wrestling (free-style) as those countries have strong judo fundamentals and have incorporated the arts for many many eras

That’s why I made sure to high-light *folk style
My exposure to Folkstyle has admittedly been quite limited, mostly it's been a handful of army wrestlers stationed overseas trying their hands at Freestyle and Greco with various degrees of success. However, Mocco did hit his foot sweeps already as a Hawkeye, and I've seen a couple of college coaches claim the headlock has just gone out of fashion because people aren't training it anymore, not because it doesn't work. I'm inclined to agree with that even if we limit the argument to Folkstyle; though I would say that modified hip throws (such as sagging throws) tend to be lower risk than standard ones.
 
My exposure to Folkstyle has admittedly been quite limited, mostly it's been a handful of army wrestlers stationed overseas trying their hands at Freestyle and Greco with various degrees of success. However, Mocco did hit his foot sweeps already as a Hawkeye, and I've seen a couple of college coaches claim the headlock has just gone out of fashion because people aren't training it anymore, not because it doesn't work. I'm inclined to agree with that even if we limit the argument to Folkstyle; though I would say that modified hip throws (such as sagging throws) tend to be lower risk than standard ones.


You are gonna have an outlier wrestler that can utilize what would be considered some unconventional moves. Cause at the end of the day if a move works, it will work

I believe the front-headlock has faded away cause I see people, even kids at youth tourneys know how to shrug/escape them with little effort. Especially since have to have a heard/arm inside your lock and that gives you leverage to escape. And the bad thing about committing to a front-headlock is you lose position badly should bottom guy escape or shrug you off like in a sit-out. You are gonna give back-points. Head-locks are chased for nice cradle variations however
 
You are gonna have an outlier wrestler that can utilize what would be considered some unconventional moves. Cause at the end of the day if a move works, it will work

I believe the front-headlock has faded away cause I see people, even kids at youth tourneys know how to shrug/escape them with little effort. Especially since have to have a heard/arm inside your lock and that gives you leverage to escape. And the bad thing about committing to a front-headlock is you lose position badly should bottom guy escape or shrug you off like in a sit-out. You are gonna give back-points. Head-locks are chased for nice cradle variations however
Just for clarification, I meant the headlock hip-throw, not the front headlock (anaconda).The nice thing about the headlock is that ideally, it ends with you in kesa with a good chance of pinning and ending the match outright. It's a nice trick to have up your sleeve for such occasions, especially if you are able to throw a sagging headlock hard. That was the first move I learned in wrestling, and still among my top three. I got to the point where I have to pull my headlocks in sparring to avoid cracking ribs, and that's a short headlock, not a high amplitude one. But yes, most people don't have that in their repertoire anymore.
The nice thing about the front headlock is that you can gator roll or even suplex in greco and freestyle. So it can rack you up five points for a suplex (ten if you're Makhmudov and can get two of them back to back) or anywhere from 2 to 10 with gator rolls, with the option of switching to a pin. I'd say defending a lazy front head is ridiculously easy, but a good one with sufficient pressure puts people to sleep quite quickly, and you can pin them. That was the go-to of my Greco coach in the German Bundesliga, he got to the point where als the refs in the league knew that he was able to choke out anyone with a standard (legal) front head, and would whistle for them to stand up as soon as he locked the position. I took his adv ice on that move, and the only times people get out of my front head is if I let them. I usually start the first gator roll from standing, like an armspin.
 
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Just for clarification, I meant the headlock hip-throw, not the front headlock (anaconda).The nice thing about the headlock is that ideally, it ends with you in kesa with a good chance of pinning and ending the match outright. It's a nice trick to have up your sleeve for such occasions, especially if you are able to throw a sagging headlock hard. But yes, most people don't have that in their repertoire anymore.
The nice thing about the front headlock is that you can gator roll or even suplex in greco and freestyle. So it can rack you up five points for a suplex (ten if you're Makhmudov and can get two of them back to back) or anywhere from 2 to 10 with gator rolls, with the option of switching to a pin. I'd say defending a lazy front head is ridiculously easy, but a good one with sufficient pressure puts people to sleep quite quickly, and you can pin them. That was the go-to of my Greco coach in the German Bundesliga, he got to the point where als the refs in the league knew that he was able to choke out anyone with a standard (legal) front head, and would whistle for them to stand up as soon as he locked the position. I took his adv ice on that move, and the only times people get out of my front head is if I let them.

Well, in submission grappling head/arm is a whole different story with many, many modern ways to strangle a person

Especially I have really long arms so dar’ce is for me everywhere and I have really good guillotines. Add to that I use almost all of my back takes to setup arm-triangles controlling my opponents attempt to escape back-control and work them into arm-triangles
 
Well, in submission grappling head/arm is a whole different story with many, many modern ways to strangle a person

Especially I have really long arms so dar’ce is for me everywhere and I have really good guillotines. Add to that I use almost all of my back takes to setup arm-triangles controlling my opponents attempt to escape back-control and work them into arm-triangles
There a re some funky front headlocks in wrestling as well, that are somewhere between a Japanese neck tie and a very cranky darce. Plus there are pure cranks like the three quarter nelson, which can also be used from standing like the gator roll for four points, with an even more likely pin afterwards.
 
Greco these days is mostly "pretending to be active in the stand-up" and then scoring in parterre. There are only very few outliers who have reliable takedowns from stand-up, and if so, rarely more than 3. For example, Frank Stäbler had a very successful run at a number of World Championships, and basically the only move he hit standing in international competiton was the arm drag. He did have other throws of course, in national competitions he'd even hit flying squirrels, but he seems to have considered those too risky for bigger championships.

As for "Judo style" throws in international wrestling, I'd say that for the largest part, they are variations uncommon or even illegal in Judo (Kani Basami, Kawazu Gake) or were introduced to Judo from other styles to begin with (Mongolian Uchi Mata).
Cross training is actually not that common anymore in my experience and from what I heard (I wrestled in Germany and Austria, but had coaches from a number of places in the former Soviet Union and teammates as well as opponents from all over Europe, the entire Caucasus area and even Mongolia), partly because the rule changes in the various disciplines are aimed to make them more distinct from one another. I only met three guys who also did Judo or Sambo (not counting myself) over my whole career. It's more common for someone to quit one thing and take up another, but recently, BJJ has soaked up most of these people. However, there was more crossover up to the 80ies and 90ies, and the various stylistic influences have blended into the main styles to the degree where it's sometimes almost impossible to say who got what from where.

That's fair. But not limited to Greco - every sport ruleset tends to get gamed, leading to more rule changes and restrictions with mixed results. In Judo at the last Olympics, we saw a bunch of guys spam shitty drop knee seois to run down the clock (like the slip rule in wrestling), denying opponent the chance to attack and causing them to get passivity shidos. Then when 2 shido guy is desperate to attack to avoid hansoku make, he makes a rushed attack and gets countered.

Judo and wrestling were very complementary rulesets prior to 2013 (when leg grabs were banned) and I think cross-training was more common then. I've been avoiding Judo due to this but started training it again last year and it's just sad that an entire generation of Judoka has never had to defend doubles, singles or explosive level changes. There's still a lot of overlap but yeah, it's less relevant as a wrestling supplement until and unless they bring back leg grabs.


My exposure to Folkstyle has admittedly been quite limited, mostly it's been a handful of army wrestlers stationed overseas trying their hands at Freestyle and Greco with various degrees of success.

I was one of those army guys stationed in Germany in the late 90's doing the rounds competing in freestyle and greco tourneys. But I'm a nobody and other than 1.5 seasons wrestling club, my freestyle and greco is just re-purposed folkstyle and I think that's the norm for most U.S. service members unless they were high level. But all high level 'Murican wrestlers compete in folkstyle and freestyle on the way up.
 
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I have kid in youth wrestling and we go compete every weekend once folk-style season starts in Aug/Sep through to the state-qualifiers in Feb and state tournaments in March

My son trains at an elite program which started in the art of Judo. Its a judo/jiu-jitsu gym that pumps out nationally ranked wrestlers.

Same. The wrestling gym my son and I train out of has a lot of national level HS wrestlers and many have gone on to wrestle D1, D2 and NAIA. The head coach was a D2 guy who like me has been Judo brown since the 90's. But unlike me, he was a high level dude who placed at senior nationals while wrestling in college.

Respect for competing in MMA. I cross-trained it but never competed. I have about 20 years total across wrestling, Judo and BJJ and my son has also trained all three. But this year he said he wanted to drop Judo and BJJ and focus on wrestling and this is the first year he's taking the off-season seriously. If a kid is serious about competing, there really is no other choice because BJJ (and Judo in the U.S.) has a hobbyist culture. One of the local BJJ tournament terror kids dropped in to do a wrestling practice with my son, and he kept gassing out and running off the mat to complain to his dad. He never came back. Wrestling is hard.
 
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Completely depends on their skill level and skill set (and yours.)

Short stocky guys are hard to shoot on and hip throw, though they can be easy to Uchimata (throw where your leg scoops under their inner thigh) and can be easier to foot sweep.

The contrary to that, if you CAN get their leg they don't have the height to hop around and maintain balance.

Overall if the biggest thing is a skill discrepancy.

I'm 6-2 and fight even taller. (Style wise not Carwin wise)

Nothing assures me I'm going to bury someone with a throw more than a short modern day jiu jitsu guy.

But a short stocky judoka or wrestler... I'm already annoyed at all the effort it's going to take.
It’s exactly that. It depends on the style. A good, tall player who knows how to play distance will be a problem with foot sweeps, ashi uchi mata, tai otoshis, etc.

However, they are disadvantaged once a stockier player gets passed their reach and gets a hold of the waist.

Also in my personal experience explosivity and speed and timing is more important than anything else in judo and stockier people tend to be more explosive than lankier people,

In wrestling it’s a bit different because the action is non stop…
 
It would be both hilarious and highly relevant to this thread if we could see Jon Jones and Deron Winn (after they each medaled at 197 lbs in NJCAA/NAIA) body swapped into each other's bodies and forced to wrestle with no train up.

Newly 5' 6" Jon Jones would try to post on Deron's head fishing for "accidental" eye pokes but get frustrated because he keeps swatting air. Then newly 6' 4" Deron Winn level changes and blast doubles from outer space but overshoots, fumbles and trips over his own arms. Then short Jones goes for a three quarter nelson but looks confused and stares at the camera like Rousimar Palhares because his T-rex arms end at other guy's clavicles.

They would both suck and have to relearn how to wrestle.
 
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a little bit. I use more judo throws&stance when I compete with shorter guys
 
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