Social Are illegal immigrants mostly bad people?

[mozfonky]

I have never owned or run a business so I don’t know how it works. I worked as a security director for a company a few years ago and the owner was both defrauding investors and wasn’t paying fed tax on workers or having some type of insurance that was required and he is now in federal prison, but I am also sure that many business owners know their way around it-especially smaller farms or construction jobs for example.

Did you testify against him?

 

[Mujeriego]

A lot of Hispanic ppl in U.S are european colonizators offsprings like Trump's parents were. It is reality.

No they’re not.
Most are brown people thats family came from Mexico.
I would know.
You know who actually has “colonialism” blood in them.
Black Americans. Almost all of them are mixed with white.

 

[SandisLL]

No they’re not.
Most are brown people thats family came from Mexico.
I would know.
You know who actually has “colonialism” blood in them.
Black Americans. Almost all of them are mixed with white.

Trump for example and a lot of reps.
Don't worry, I do know how locals looks in Spain, Portugal and Southern Italy.

 

[nhbbear]

i'm surprised they didn't train four year olds to race horses.

Current jockeys are about the same size

 

[nhbbear]

Its complicated but broadly speaking, a form i-9 is what requires an employer to verify immigration status, but those are only required for employees, not contractors.

So for a farm needing help during harvest, they're take on contractors (no health insurance and no verification needed) and just play dumb that they didn't know they were contracting with illegal immigrants (otherwise that's illegal). It's still very advisable for businesses to pay their end of taxes, or else thay brings its own headaches ans scrutiny. Even if you're paying cash under the table or something (besides that helps the business by recognizing costs and reducing your tax burden broadly speaking).

Thanks for the info.

 

[nhbbear]

Did you testify against him?

No. I was the first one laid off when things started falling apart. Followed by the executive chef and the radio advertiser.

 

[Hog-train]

A lot of illegal immigrants doing farm labor actually make above the minimum wage (aka an actual free market wage).

I'm fine with paying more for my food but Americans plainly aren't. They've actually never mot relied on an underclass to subsidize their food Coste.

How do you square the griping about inflation post covid with your argumen that Americans will pay more for staples?

1. A lot of farms get around that through a loophole - many are paid a piece rate (e.g., a certain amount per flat of fruit picked).
2. The Federal minimum wage is only $7.25. That doesn't take into account all the other abuses the undocumented suffer such as long hours with no breaks, very poor safety conditions, no protection from abuse, etc.
3. The Federal minimum wage doesn't apply to small farms.

Go to any pro-immigrant website, they literally all attest to undocumented workers being abused and taken advantage of. They just get fired if they complain. They're vulnerable to exploitation and potential abuses.

Yes, cheap labor is an intrinsic part of the capitalist system.

Been this way since "low-wage workers" looked like this:

Employers have always sought out the poorest and most desperate to fill these jobs.

Only difference is that back then, all the poor and desperate were white. By now, whites have done so well that, as a group, they've moved beyond this and the poor and desperate are nonwhites, so those are the ones that get to work the shitty jobs.

And now we have labor laws, safety standards and child labor became illegal.

You're basically making excuses for exploitation of people because "we did it in the past."

Do you realize it is still legal to employ children in farms?

 

[Scerpi]

Trump for example and a lot of reps.
Don't worry, I do know how locals looks in Spain, Portugal and Southern Italy.

God... if you want to play that game. Take a DNA test and you'll find you have DNA from ancestors all over the planet... lol

For fucks sake

If you're family has lived somewhere for more than a few generations, then that's basically where you're from.

Pocahontas claimed to be native Indian and got into Harvard with 1/32 in her. lol

50% of SE Asia and Middle East likely has Genghis Khan somewhere in them

 

[avenue94]

1. A lot of farms get around that through a loophole - many are paid a piece rate (e.g., a certain amount per flat of fruit picked).
2. The Federal minimum wage is only $7.25. That doesn't take into account all the other abuses the undocumented suffer such as long hours with no breaks, very poor safety conditions, no protection from abuse, etc.

Go to any pro-immigrant website, they literally all attest to undocumented workers being abused and taken advantage of. They just get fired if they complain. They're vulnerable to exploitation and potential abuses.

The median report4r wage for illegal immigrants in California has been higher than the state minimum wage for several years. That's not all farm labor, but it's a significant portion of it.

And one can make more than minimum wage and still be exploited. The best way to elongate that is bring those workers into the light and to offer a path through citizenship. That's a far better option than guest workers if you wsnt to protect labor, since I'm sure you'll claim that's what we should do.

You never answered: what do you think the market rate wage for agricultural workers is?

 

[RockyLockridge]

no of course they aren't bad people, they have the best intentions for their own lives and the lives of their families. As a man, I understand a man will do anything it takes to give his kids the best life possible. And if the sacrifice he makes is that he will one day have to face deportation, then as a man I understand that this is the game we play and the risks we take.


"They justify this by saying "I don't care what is legal, I will do anything to give my son and daughter a better life and if it has consequences i will pay for it, and I swear to abide by all this countries law while i remain here"

I do not frown upon it. But I understand that with all things in life, the choice you made in the past can come back to haunt you. That's fair play too. While I do not think they are bad people, they know they did something illegal. Laws dont always reflect morals (mine, anyway) you would have to be pretty cocky to think there would never be any consequences or that you would never have face them.

 

[Source]

I voted no but we don’t owe foreigners shit. We have to look after our own first and we have multiple immigration channels to get in.

I often see this sentiment here but then when given the opportunity to support policies that help Americans in need they usually oppose them.

 

[Hog-train]

The median report4r wage for illegal immigrants in California has been higher than the state minimum wage for several years. That's not all farm labor, but it's a significant portion of it.

And one can make more than minimum wage and still be exploited. The best way to elongate that is bring those workers into the light and to offer a path through citizenship. That's a far better option than guest workers if you wsnt to protect labor, since I'm sure you'll claim that's what we should do.

Small farms are not legally mandated to pay the federal minimum wage. And it is still legal to employ children at farms.

And what you're talking about are all illegal immigrants, which includes people that are asylum applicants, TPS holders, etc - many who have work authorization. These are not the people working the farms.

The people at farms are usually the most unfortunate - completely undocumented. No status at all and ripe for exploitation. And they are 100% being exploited. Ask any pro immigrant advocacy group.

I cannot STAND this fucking elitist argument people keep saying in the media - "Who will pick our fruit, clean our toilets, etc." WTF. YOU HAVE TO PAY MORE for your fucking smoothies you elitist fucks. Do you realize how elitist and frankly racist that is?

You never answered: what do you think the market rate wage for agricultural workers is?

It differs greatly by state. But that is irrelevant because a significant portion get paid off the books in cash and not counted in these statistics.

And remember that sometimes CHILDREN are employed at these farms and paid less. Which is legal.

 

[mozfonky]

I often see this sentiment here but then when given the opportunity to support policies that help Americans in need they usually oppose them.

absolutely, people are so selfish they can't stand seeing anyone else getting a break. I remember my town trying to be radical by raising the minimum wage to 15 bucks an hour 10 years ago. I read a million posts arguing how it shouldn't be done, how businesses would fail, and prices would rise and that if you wanted more money you should have done xyz. I thought, "why do these people care it probably doesn't really effect them" it's just mean spiritedness.

We are so competitive, even with our own family and friends. I've lost a lot of people because of how petty we all are.

 

[ThaiSexPills]

I often see this sentiment here but then when given the opportunity to support policies that help Americans in need they usually oppose them.

Yup, pretty much. But there’s no social program like a strong economy. Imagine what could be if the government didn’t spend billions overseas or on corporate welfare disguised as social programs or straight up corporate welfare..

 

[Jacket time]

 

[avenue94]

Small farms are not legally mandated to pay the federal minimum wage. And it is still legal to employ children at farms.

Not what I'm referring to.

And what you're talking about are all illegal immigrants, which includes people that are asylum applicants, TPS holders, etc - many who have work authorization. These are not the people working the farms.

Surveys and other studies exist on this for obvious reason. The data isn't perfect but it's far better than nothing and assuming that illegal immigrants make sub-minimum wage in agriculture.

You end up with estimates in California of anywhere from $13 an hour $16 an hour. That doesn't include asylum seekers or TPS holders, I have no idea why you insist on tossing out immigration buzz words at random.

The people at farms are usually the most unfortunate - completely undocumented. No status at all and ripe for exploitation. And they are 100% being exploited. Ask any pro immigrant advocacy group.

You mean the same immigration advocacy groups who want a path to citizenship to stop this exploitation? Funny how you want to feign compassion for these workers while ignoring the solution they are clamoring for.

I cannot STAND this fucking elitist argument people keep saying in the media - "Who will pick our fruit, clean our toilets, etc." WTF. YOU HAVE TO PAY MORE for your fucking smoothies you elitist fucks. Do you realize how elitist and frankly racist that is?

I'm willing to pay for my Staples, I'm not exactly a median income American. What is, elitist and frankly stupid, is claiming that increased labor costs will only affect smoothies, as if literally every agriculture sector doesn't' rely on illegal labor. For example, who do you think works in poultry plants?

It differs greatly by state. But that is irrelevant because a significant portion get paid off the books in cash and not counted in these statistics.

And remember that sometimes CHILDREN are employed at these farms and paid less. Which is legal.

See above, you keep substituting your political zeal for actual critical thinking here. Again, how much do you think the average American is willing to pay more for their groceries? 10%? 25%? Where do you think the breaking point is?

 

[Hog-train]

Surveys and other studies exist on this for obvious reason. The data isn't perfect but it's far better than nothing and assuming that illegal immigrants make sub-minimum wage in agriculture.

You end up with estimates in California of anywhere from $13 an hour $16 an hour. That doesn't include asylum seekers or TPS holders, I have no idea why you insist on tossing out immigration buzz words at random.

And I'm saying these "official stats" are not accurate because a shitload of them get paid under the table in cash. Undocumented status makes them much more vulnerable to such arrangements. Many are paid in cash without required tax and insurance contributions by employers.

What they get in return is that their kids born here are eligible for food stamps and stuff like that.

You mean the same immigration advocacy groups who want a path to citizenship to stop this exploitation? Funny how you want to feign compassion for these workers while ignoring the solution they are clamoring for.

If you give an easy path to citizenship for every person who comes in illegally to work low wage, low skill jobs with zero English skills, that's just opening the door for an even greater deluge of illegals storming the border.

Almost all of them will be a huge net financial drain on society because millions upon millions will all of a sudden be eligible for all and every social service - Medicaid, welfare, SNAP, etc. And millions more will be storming the border.

What you're proposing is completely preposterous, we literally couldn't afford it and would be retarded. Yea let's let in even more millions in a very short amount of time and give them full citizenship LOL

I'm willing to pay for my Staples, I'm not exactly a median income American. What is, elitist and frankly stupid, is claiming that increased labor costs will only affect smoothies, as if literally every agriculture sector doesn't' rely on illegal labor. For example, who do you think works in poultry plants?

If you have to rely on ILLEGAL labor for an industry, there is something wrong. That industry needs to change.

See above, you keep substituting your political zeal for actual critical thinking here. Again, how much do you think the average American is willing to pay more for their groceries? 10%? 25%? Where do you think the breaking point is?

So you're basically saying let's keep exploiting undocumented labor because you don't want to pay more for groceries.

You do realize there are entire countries in the world that import almost all their fruits right? South Korea and many Middle Eastern countries for example imports a huge chunk of their fruits - yea it's a little bit more expensive for fruit and veggies but not ridiculously so.

 

[avenue94]

And I'm saying these "official stats" are not accurate because a shitload of them get paid under the table in cash. Undocumented status makes them much more vulnerable to such arrangements. Many are paid in cash without required tax and insurance contributions by employers.

What they get in return is that they're kids and stuff born here are eligible for food stamps and stuff like that.

These aren't "official stats", they are regular surveys that include those who get paid under the table.

If you give an easy path to citizenship for every person who comes in illegally to work low wage, low skill jobs with zero English skills, that's just opening the door for an even greater deluge of illegals storming the border.

Almost all of them will be a huge net financial drain on society because millions upon millions will all of a sudden be eligible for all and every social service - Medicaid, welfare, SNAP, etc. And millions more will be storming the border.

The biggest headwind and tailwind for immigration is economics. Immigrants don't move to the US when there isn't any jobs, it mostly self regulates.

Not to mention granting citizenship status increases tax revenue, on top of immigrants already paying into welfare and SS.

The fact of the matter is there are at least 10 million illegal immigrants in the country, most of who are working. They can't be replaced easily, so the only realistic options are maintain the status quo of exploitation that benefits every American, or you can offer them a path to citizenship. Which do you want?

What you're proposing is completely preposterous, we literally couldn't afford it and would be retarded. Yea let's let in even more millions in a very short amount of time and give them full citizenship LOL

How much would 10 million new Americans cost the country over their lifetime?

If you have to rely on ILLEGAL labor for an industry, there is something wrong. That industry needs to change.

I'm willing to pay the cost, but the country very plainly doesn't want to. American agriculture has never operated without exploitation of an underclass. Are you disagreeing on a very basic historical fact?

So you're basically saying let's keep exploiting undocumented labor because you don't want to pay more for groceries.

Or you can just use your eyeballs to read plain English.

I'm willing to pay for my Staples, I'm not exactly a median income American.

You do realize there are entire countries in the world that import almost all their fruits right? South Korea and many Middle Eastern countries for example imports a huge chunk of their fruits - yea it's a little bit more expensive for fruit and veggies but not ridiculously so.

About 12 or 13% of the average US household's spending goes to food. For Japan and Korea, that figure is just shy of 30%. This isn't purely down to food costs, since those countries are significantly less affluent than America, but you get the gist.

Is your argument that doubling the share of spending that goes to food is trivial?

 

[Kassitus]

At the very least they break the law and disrespect their hosts. Even if they have redeeming qualities thats not a good place to start from.

 

[Hog-train]

These aren't "official stats", they are regular surveys that include those who get paid under the table.

I'm sure people getting paid under the table are very eager to answer surveys. Polls and surveys are useless, especially anonymous ones.

The biggest headwind and tailwind for immigration is economics. Immigrants don't move to the US when there isn't any jobs, it mostly self regulates.

Not to mention granting citizenship status increases tax revenue, on top of immigrants already paying into welfare and SS.

The fact of the matter is there are at least 10 million illegal immigrants in the country, most of who are working. They can't be replaced easily, so the only realistic options are maintain the status quo of exploitation that benefits every American, or you can offer them a path to citizenship. Which do you want?

1. All the illegals are a huge net financial drain.
2. There are far more than 10 million illegals. They've been saying 11 million are in the country for decades. That many or more came in during the last 4 years alone. Wherever you're getting your stats are hilariously wrong.

How much would 10 million new Americans cost the country over their lifetime?

Hard to say. But some estimates show it to be about 451 billion per year.

I'm willing to pay the cost, but the country very plainly doesn't want to. American agriculture has never operated without exploitation of an underclass. Are you disagreeing on a very basic historical fact?

I'm not disputing America has done this in the past. That doesn't make it right. That needs to change and we have to pay more for fruits and vegetables. Too fucking bad if you want to pay less for it.

About 12 or 13% of the average US household's spending goes to food. For Japan and Korea, that figure is just shy of 30%. This isn't purely down to food costs, since those countries are significantly less affluent than America, but you get the gist.

Is your argument that doubling the share of spending that goes to food is trivial?

You're just pulling numbers out of your ass. Overall, the average South Korean household spent 14.4% of its monthly budget on food in the first three quarters of 2024.