Agree and I'll add that
1) those guys there are very experienced and its not their first rodeo.
2) punching technique wasn't very polished in Thailand back then.
3) notice that those guys have their hands low while theyre at the edge of kicking (let alone punching) range. It progressively goes up as they get closer.
4) you wouldn't watch the 1960 Celtics over the 2010 version.
1) Irrelevant.
2) Clearly untrue. Did you watch the video? Vicharnnoi has some blistering hands, and I am particularly fond of how he uses his lead leg to set them up.
3) True. I believe that is partly because of the clinch, but notice that Vicharnnoi's lead hand comes up the center when they close distance. That's both to blind his opponent and create a sense of threat, so that he controls the distance. Having that lead hand there (or the lead foot on the outside) is a huge factor in controlling the fight.
4) I wouldn't watch either.
It probably has to do with the scoring criteria back then... Today, the muay thai stance is designed for that kicking/knee/elbow score heavy criteria.... that Nak muay in the video doesnt have the hands low, he still defends high kicks, etc...
you'll probably find more old school principles at work in western muay thai/kick boxing... they cross train boxing alot more than in thailand..
It has a ton to do with the scoring, in my opinion. The huge emphasis on clinching and kicking these days has guys sometimes throwing no more than 10 punches a match. Instead, they walk forward and engage in the clinch immediately. Having your head close to your opponent isn't such a big deal when you're completely unafraid that he will punch you in the face, and having the hands high is a much more effective way to deal with the clinch and threat of elbows, especially with your head in that forward position. There is also an emphasis on pulling the body away from the opponent, since body kicks are the most common attack and so highly valued.
How the hell does muay thai.....in Thailand .....get diluted when there are 10s of thousands of ppl with 200+ pro fights , innumerable camps by former champs , an unprecedented level of worldwide interest combined with a constant and pervasive social penetration (Thailand) by tv / online / advertising / cinema / gambling / government and royal participation / tourism ...... a veritable way of life for 100s of thousands of athletes ?
Instead of "dilution" have you tried thinking of it as an evolution ?
It gets diluted by a change in emphasis. There used to be a lot more emphasis on punching techniques, or at least fighters weren't penalized for relying on their hands the way they are now. This is a largely modern change, from what I can tell. Guys have very little interest in using their boxing in the ring when the scoring emphasis is so heavily placed on kicking/clinching. Even dangerous boxers like Jomthong Chuwattana and Saenchai rely on their kicks
far more than their punches in Muay Thai. It's a scoring thing.
Also, you point out that gambling would prevent the art from being diluted, but you could argue that the opposite is true. Gambling in Thailand has a huge effect on the way fights are fought/scored, e.g. the two "feeler" rounds and then the two and a half "fight" rounds, all accompanied by steadily intensifying music. It's all for the benefit of the bettors.
I don't understand how the only thing people get from "old school boxing" is fighting with a low guard. Don't get me wrong if I'm doing MT or MMA I keep a higher guard but there are plenty of things you can take away from great boxers that apply to striking in general outside of your guard.
Good posture, weight distribution, head movement may be things emphasized in an "old school boxing style" but they are completely universal to striking. Just because a lot (definitely not all) of people at BS Thai schools and MMA schools don't receive a solid striking education does not mean those fundamentals are not a part of MMA/MT.
In my opinion, don't try and box in an MT fight the art is not designed for that. However there are 100000000s of things you can learn boxing that are than applicable to how you train your other martial arts.
I completely agree, except the "don't box in MT" part. If that's your strong suit, it's perfectly applicable to use it. I personally prefer to get into-mid range and punch.
A few things i'd like to add to DuckAndCover's post (which is an excellent post on this subject)
-90/10 weight distribution imo is a tad too much. Maybe 70/30 or 60/40. But it is up to you.
-Lead hand point toward the other guy's centreline like a knife to threaten him, as if "i'm gonna hurt you with this"
-The lead shoulder raise is achieve by tilt the hip forward. That way the shoulder will come up on its own without you actually need to do it yourself.
-If you like to fade back as a measure against high kick, try to twist your back leg 45 degrees angle instead of 90 degrees and widen your base a bit. This is to ensure that when you fade away your head don't come over your back leg, which can really be scary since you won't have balance in that moment.
-Use the teep. In this stance it really facciliate the usage of the teep as a weapon.
Listen to this stuff, TS. Good advice if you want to apply these concepts in kickfighting.
I dont see whats the issue of using positioning and footwork (old school principals) with a high guard... at least for pure MT... why open yourself to attacks (high kicks, etc.) with a low guard...
and the weight cant be too much on the back foot or you wont be able to check effectively..
There isn't much of an issue. There are plenty of guys who do it very well.
It's funny, because the "old schoolers" on this board all advocate those principles of boxing because of the defensive advantages, but the lowered hands are really an offensive advantage. I personally believe that a very high and tight guard can be a defensive liability, but the truth is that it hinders your offense far more. High hands make your punches quicker to the target, but they also make them a lot more obvious. Uppercuts are money in Muay Thai where guys aren't used to watching for punches from below the shoulders. It's not that you can't raise your hands, but that feeling comfortable in letting them move away from your head opens up a ton of offensive options and angles.
