Anyone ever deal with patellar tendonitis/jumper's knee?

ImmigrantMentality

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I'm looking for some advice, I've been dealing with it since this whole covid thing started and I was attempting some very basic bodyweight lunges at home that caused my knee to flare up. At the moment I'm only doing very basic pt type exercise for my legs and I'm not sure it's working much. I get the feeling that laying off of intense exercises has caused it to get better but the moment I increase the intensity they will start hurting again.
 
Definitely one of the most frustrating injuries/conditions out there. It's a fine balance between rest for healing and SLOWLY returning to activities. Even then, start with movements that don't aggravate it at all but can help build everything around knee and then slowly progress back to activities that could aggravate it, but in very small steps combined with a lot of modalities to treat the swelling. Tendinitis is a bitch but patellar and achilles are some of the worst to try and train with. There's no magic process to speed it up a ton, other than maybe a cortisone injection but they bring a world of issues with them and should be a last resort, if at all, IMO.
 
Yes!
I have!

and it turned into Tendonosis which lasted for 2 yrs until i found out how to treat it. I could not squat or run laterally(play floor hockey/basketball) for that entire time.

How old are you?
 
Definitely one of the most frustrating injuries/conditions out there. It's a fine balance between rest for healing and SLOWLY returning to activities. Even then, start with movements that don't aggravate it at all but can help build everything around knee and then slowly progress back to activities that could aggravate it, but in very small steps combined with a lot of modalities to treat the swelling. Tendinitis is a bitch but patellar and achilles are some of the worst to try and train with. There's no magic process to speed it up a ton, other than maybe a cortisone injection but they bring a world of issues with them and should be a last resort, if at all, IMO.
cortisone is trouble.
 
I was 35. I had felt the pain when squatting and when shifting laterally with force. I just thought i was being a pussy so i kept playing and lifting for a month maybe. It finally got so bad one game that i had to walk off the floor and i quit.

i went to a walk in. I looked younger than my years, and, as it is an overuse injury, she told me to just take three weeks off of everything. I still believe that was good advice for someone younger with higher amounts of hgh, or even someone around 30 who hadnt pushed that tendon as hard for as long as i had.

ill stop my story there. Have you taken a solid three weeks right off? Have you continued to make this worse and reaggravated it a lot? If the tendonitis becomes tendonosis, as mine did, then ill go through the rest of what i did and read and learned, which finally worked, very quickly, after two years of frustration and the inability to play sports properly.
 
continuing (my wife is enjoying how into this i am, as it was such a huge part of my life)

i took three weeks totally off. Hard to do. Minimal improvement. A month or two more went by without working out or running. Minimal, if any improvement. You start telling yourself there has been some, but it might be in your head, and then you have an even worse day, which might also be mental. Some serious depression here.

I went to another dr. who referred me to the top sports knee specialist in town. He misdiagnosed me. At this point i still didnt know what i had, as neither of the first two had said anything.

He sent me to physio. that guy rediagnosed me, also without telling me. We did IMS, massage, balance boards, cycling, all kinds of shit. nothing helped. went there maybe seven times over two months. covered by work.

I asked him, because i had been reading a lot, is this tendonosis? he said ya, he thought so.

Good guy, nothing he did worked, but it was covered at least.

I gave up on all of that eventually and just accepted, miserably, that at least i could still run slow over distance some days, and i could do pushups and pullups, some stifflegged power snatch, which hurt a bit, but this looked like a lifelong thing at this point.
 
Finally, probably a year later, where i had gone to get another opinion once, but mostly had quit trying with dr opinions, a guy at work told me about prolotherapy. naturopathy sounded nuts, but i was willing to try anything.

This guy actually sat down and had an hour long conversation with me. First guy who did that. I had read tons and he answered and confirmed a lot of my guesses, while also telling me how everything he was going to do worked, in theory.

The patellar tendon attaches bone to muscle. The tendon itself is very hard with very little blood flow. He said my body would heal itself to a certain point where it was functional but then lose focus on that area because it is a big ‘effort’ to get blood cells there. It had to be reinjured to bring back the focus, but not so much as to do more damage, as tendonosis is the deconstruction of the tendon being done at a rate higher than it can be fixed. you are already deep in the hole, you dont want to go further.

He was going to inject sugarwater into my knee. The sugar and the needle itself aggravate the area so the body will respond. the water i think softens the tendon a bit for blood flow. (This is ten years ago, so i may be getting some finer points wrong).

All he did to find out where to inject was push on my tendon until i reacted in pain. He drew a dot there, injection site. did about ten in total. Hurt like fuck that first time. Just a small gauge needle, sugarwater. crazy, i thought.

in about a week, i had, no mental tricks, healed past anywhere i had felt in the last year and a half. it actually, for real, felt better. But far from perfect.

Naturopathy was NOT covered by work and it was costing me $200 to get this done. but i went back for more maybe two weeks after the first injections.

I had read a lot about prolo now, and i asked him, “the first dr. said to just take three weeks off. Is that because i train harder than most 35 yr olds and she is used to seeing this injury in 20yr olds, who have enough natural HGH to recover properly?” He said yes.

I asked if there was a point or any dangers to injecting hgh into the knee.

He said that he has colleagues who do just that, but the shots are very expensive. I thought that if he was charging me $200 for sugarwater that i didnt even want to ask about hgh.

He did another series of shots that day (which also made improvements), but while he was out of the room, i grabbed a needle so that i would know the gauge.

I went to the guy who deals steroids at work, he happened to be doing HGH and i just got a couple of vials (i dont even remember what they come in. anyways, it wasnt a signficant part of a cycle.... i feel like there are ten vials in a kit, many kits in a cycle but this isnt my forte...and i used three vials, maybe four)

i got the same needles, and did my own injections at 5am so id be groggy. pressing to find the most painful spot. two injection sites each time, one vial. once a week.

four weeks later (so it mustve been 4 vials), after nearly two years of hopelessness, i was totally better, and able to start bodyweight squatting and cycling to strengthen the area. in fact, i eased into strengthening probably after two weeks. i felt completely normal after maybe two more months of ramping back to normal training.

hope this helps.

hopefully you are still just in the tendonitis stage and just need to buck up and stop training (which is hard to do), but for anyone else, this helped my life so much, and ive been good for ten years. I felt the same pain two years ago. Laid off of running and squats for a month and it got better. Getting better at listening to my body.
 
Definitely one of the most frustrating injuries/conditions out there. It's a fine balance between rest for healing and SLOWLY returning to activities. Even then, start with movements that don't aggravate it at all but can help build everything around knee and then slowly progress back to activities that could aggravate it, but in very small steps combined with a lot of modalities to treat the swelling. Tendinitis is a bitch but patellar and achilles are some of the worst to try and train with. There's no magic process to speed it up a ton, other than maybe a cortisone injection but they bring a world of issues with them and should be a last resort, if at all, IMO.
Great advice
 
Finally, probably a year later, where i had gone to get another opinion once, but mostly had quit trying with dr opinions, a guy at work told me about prolotherapy. naturopathy sounded nuts, but i was willing to try anything.

This guy actually sat down and had an hour long conversation with me. First guy who did that. I had read tons and he answered and confirmed a lot of my guesses, while also telling me how everything he was going to do worked, in theory.

The patellar tendon attaches bone to muscle. The tendon itself is very hard with very little blood flow. He said my body would heal itself to a certain point where it was functional but then lose focus on that area because it is a big ‘effort’ to get blood cells there. It had to be reinjured to bring back the focus, but not so much as to do more damage, as tendonosis is the deconstruction of the tendon being done at a rate higher than it can be fixed. you are already deep in the hole, you dont want to go further.

He was going to inject sugarwater into my knee. The sugar and the needle itself aggravate the area so the body will respond. the water i think softens the tendon a bit for blood flow. (This is ten years ago, so i may be getting some finer points wrong).

All he did to find out where to inject was push on my tendon until i reacted in pain. He drew a dot there, injection site. did about ten in total. Hurt like fuck that first time. Just a small gauge needle, sugarwater. crazy, i thought.

in about a week, i had, no mental tricks, healed past anywhere i had felt in the last year and a half. it actually, for real, felt better. But far from perfect.

Naturopathy was NOT covered by work and it was costing me $200 to get this done. but i went back for more maybe two weeks after the first injections.

I had read a lot about prolo now, and i asked him, “the first dr. said to just take three weeks off. Is that because i train harder than most 35 yr olds and she is used to seeing this injury in 20yr olds, who have enough natural HGH to recover properly?” He said yes.

I asked if there was a point or any dangers to injecting hgh into the knee.

He said that he has colleagues who do just that, but the shots are very expensive. I thought that if he was charging me $200 for sugarwater that i didnt even want to ask about hgh.

He did another series of shots that day (which also made improvements), but while he was out of the room, i grabbed a needle so that i would know the gauge.

I went to the guy who deals steroids at work, he happened to be doing HGH and i just got a couple of vials (i dont even remember what they come in. anyways, it wasnt a signficant part of a cycle.... i feel like there are ten vials in a kit, many kits in a cycle but this isnt my forte...and i used three vials, maybe four)

i got the same needles, and did my own injections at 5am so id be groggy. pressing to find the most painful spot. two injection sites each time, one vial. once a week.

four weeks later (so it mustve been 4 vials), after nearly two years of hopelessness, i was totally better, and able to start bodyweight squatting and cycling to strengthen the area. in fact, i eased into strengthening probably after two weeks. i felt completely normal after maybe two more months of ramping back to normal training.

hope this helps.

hopefully you are still just in the tendonitis stage and just need to buck up and stop training (which is hard to do), but for anyone else, this helped my life so much, and ive been good for ten years. I felt the same pain two years ago. Laid off of running and squats for a month and it got better. Getting better at listening to my body.
Yes so with me it's actually not squats that are bothering my knee, in fact prior to all the lockdowns I was doing my normal squat and lunges with weights plus other stuff on leg days with no issues. Then when all the lockdowns started I had to start doing bodyweight stuff at home instead, and that's how my knee got injured doing a bodyweight lunge. It was a reverse lunge to be exact and I first felt a sharp pain on the knee I used to step back rather than my knee that was in front with most of the weight on it. Then after that my knee was pretty much hurting me during any activity where I had to bend it, like running, squatting, etc. Anyways I took a few weeks where I was only doing slow bodyweight exercises with strict attention to form, and my knee wasn't hurting and actually started feeling better. But then I started running and went back to my MT gym and it started hurting really bad again. So now I'm pretty much only doing light PT stuff and it's getting better again but it's still quite tender and I feel as though it will start getting bad again the moment I start doing intense workouts again.

I did go see a doctor and got an mri and x ray. The doc said that my knee was actually quite healthy, with no degeneration or tears or anything, which was actually kind of a surprise since I used to do a lot of deep squats that I thought might have worn my knee down and I have a lot of popping and grinding in my knees but apparently they are pretty healthy. Only thing he saw was a little inflammation which he didn't seem too concerned on. He diagnosed me with runner's knee/jumpers knee and just told me to do some pt exercises at home. But I feel like that's what I've been doing already. Maybe I will have to just do them for much longer.
 
Finally, probably a year later, where i had gone to get another opinion once, but mostly had quit trying with dr opinions, a guy at work told me about prolotherapy. naturopathy sounded nuts, but i was willing to try anything.

This guy actually sat down and had an hour long conversation with me. First guy who did that. I had read tons and he answered and confirmed a lot of my guesses, while also telling me how everything he was going to do worked, in theory.

The patellar tendon attaches bone to muscle. The tendon itself is very hard with very little blood flow. He said my body would heal itself to a certain point where it was functional but then lose focus on that area because it is a big ‘effort’ to get blood cells there. It had to be reinjured to bring back the focus, but not so much as to do more damage, as tendonosis is the deconstruction of the tendon being done at a rate higher than it can be fixed. you are already deep in the hole, you dont want to go further.

He was going to inject sugarwater into my knee. The sugar and the needle itself aggravate the area so the body will respond. the water i think softens the tendon a bit for blood flow. (This is ten years ago, so i may be getting some finer points wrong).

All he did to find out where to inject was push on my tendon until i reacted in pain. He drew a dot there, injection site. did about ten in total. Hurt like fuck that first time. Just a small gauge needle, sugarwater. crazy, i thought.

in about a week, i had, no mental tricks, healed past anywhere i had felt in the last year and a half. it actually, for real, felt better. But far from perfect.

Naturopathy was NOT covered by work and it was costing me $200 to get this done. but i went back for more maybe two weeks after the first injections.

I had read a lot about prolo now, and i asked him, “the first dr. said to just take three weeks off. Is that because i train harder than most 35 yr olds and she is used to seeing this injury in 20yr olds, who have enough natural HGH to recover properly?” He said yes.

I asked if there was a point or any dangers to injecting hgh into the knee.

He said that he has colleagues who do just that, but the shots are very expensive. I thought that if he was charging me $200 for sugarwater that i didnt even want to ask about hgh.

He did another series of shots that day (which also made improvements), but while he was out of the room, i grabbed a needle so that i would know the gauge.

I went to the guy who deals steroids at work, he happened to be doing HGH and i just got a couple of vials (i dont even remember what they come in. anyways, it wasnt a signficant part of a cycle.... i feel like there are ten vials in a kit, many kits in a cycle but this isnt my forte...and i used three vials, maybe four)

i got the same needles, and did my own injections at 5am so id be groggy. pressing to find the most painful spot. two injection sites each time, one vial. once a week.

four weeks later (so it mustve been 4 vials), after nearly two years of hopelessness, i was totally better, and able to start bodyweight squatting and cycling to strengthen the area. in fact, i eased into strengthening probably after two weeks. i felt completely normal after maybe two more months of ramping back to normal training.

hope this helps.

hopefully you are still just in the tendonitis stage and just need to buck up and stop training (which is hard to do), but for anyone else, this helped my life so much, and ive been good for ten years. I felt the same pain two years ago. Laid off of running and squats for a month and it got better. Getting better at listening to my body.
I'm a bit hesitant to self-treat with hgh though, I'm sure you will understand why. But I will remember this advice and do some research on it if my knee starts to get worse in the future
 
Definitely one of the most frustrating injuries/conditions out there. It's a fine balance between rest for healing and SLOWLY returning to activities. Even then, start with movements that don't aggravate it at all but can help build everything around knee and then slowly progress back to activities that could aggravate it, but in very small steps combined with a lot of modalities to treat the swelling. Tendinitis is a bitch but patellar and achilles are some of the worst to try and train with. There's no magic process to speed it up a ton, other than maybe a cortisone injection but they bring a world of issues with them and should be a last resort, if at all, IMO.
I feel like I am beyond the rest phase and am now trying to strengthen and stretch my knee. It's just difficult knowing what exact approach or what exercises I should be doing. I tried doing these exercises I found in this video, because I think this guy has a great channel overall but these reverse wall squats and split squat exercises he was showing here are exactly the type of exercises that make my knee hurt worse.

 
I'm a bit hesitant to self-treat with hgh though, I'm sure you will understand why. But I will remember this advice and do some research on it if my knee starts to get worse in the future

I think you just need to be patient and don’t do anything that makes it worse.

In hindsight, although a month off looked like forever to me, I wouldve taken even two months off very happily rather than making it worse like i did.

I love balanced workouts, so i hate to unbalance, but you could spend some time getting really, really good at pushups and pullups. Itll all come back after you are better.

I believe that slowly easing back, even with simply walking stairs, and listening to it is the right way. You want it to work, you want it to bring focus from the body to it, but small, small steps. Dont hurt it, just work it, and then take some time for it to heal the next step.

But if it gets worse or never better try prolotherapy if you are afraid to prolo yourself. In this i dont blame you. Ive watched two friends have elbow versions of this and take about a year each to heal from, and of course they thought i was nuts. Dr.s get a ton of respect, and have a breadth of knowledge. I dont know what % of them spent as long or hard looking into this as me. I probably read 10 hours of forums and dull medical files just to find if there was some way i was going to inject oxygen into my bloodstream or something else unforeseen before i did it.

The one thing i never did was simply to sugarwater inject myself. It might work, too. It was do basic, he just pressed until i said ow, and then injected there. i honestly think even just the needle going in may have been breaking up scar tissue and helping.

But, in any case, however you do it, little work or little injury and lots of healing time. Too big of an injury that day and itll get worse, i think.

work on that upperbody!
 
I feel like I am beyond the rest phase and am now trying to strengthen and stretch my knee. It's just difficult knowing what exact approach or what exercises I should be doing. I tried doing these exercises I found in this video, because I think this guy has a great channel overall but these reverse wall squats and split squat exercises he was showing here are exactly the type of exercises that make my knee hurt worse.


I personally wouldn't put wall sits and any single leg movement at the top of the list for early stage tendinopathic pain, even with minimal ROM. But everyone is different, and that's exactly why that if you feel they specifically trigger the pain, don't do them right now. It is true that you'll want to re-introduce stressors at some point, including heavy loads (which can have a great effect on tendon morphology and pain, as long as it's controlled), but before that you want to build up the surrounding areas and minimize aggravation, as your pain receptors are senstive right now. Lots of glute, hammies and calf work can sometimes work in the meantime, combined with some tissue release of hips, glutes, quads.

Hows deadlifting and leg curls feeling? Hows sitting back on a high chair/table like you'd do a low bar back squat with hips pushed back looking at the ground?
 
I feel like I am beyond the rest phase and am now trying to strengthen and stretch my knee. It's just difficult knowing what exact approach or what exercises I should be doing. I tried doing these exercises I found in this video, because I think this guy has a great channel overall but these reverse wall squats and split squat exercises he was showing here are exactly the type of exercises that make my knee hurt worse.


without watching, is he squatting facing the wall? i always show that to people. best way to keep the body from leaning forward, and to produce hip and ankle mobility, allowing the hips to take the weight instead of the knees.

If that hurts your knee, you arent ready. unless you can do a small number of them without pain. just work up from there.

i honestly could not DO a bodyweight squat for a long time period about a year to a year and a half in.
 
I’m dealing with some kind of tendonitis right now but it seems to be affecting the inner knee more than below the knee which I hear is normally where people feel this injury.

I’ve been doing some isometrics as I hear these are good for the tendons but not sure about that. I might just need to rest it.
 
I personally wouldn't put wall sits and any single leg movement at the top of the list for early stage tendinopathic pain, even with minimal ROM. But everyone is different, and that's exactly why that if you feel they specifically trigger the pain, don't do them right now. It is true that you'll want to re-introduce stressors at some point, including heavy loads (which can have a great effect on tendon morphology and pain, as long as it's controlled), but before that you want to build up the surrounding areas and minimize aggravation, as your pain receptors are senstive right now. Lots of glute, hammies and calf work can sometimes work in the meantime, combined with some tissue release of hips, glutes, quads.

Hows deadlifting and leg curls feeling? Hows sitting back on a high chair/table like you'd do a low bar back squat with hips pushed back looking at the ground?
Well deadlifts I have not been able to do since the lockdown, leg curls I can do just fine, I am doing them now but with some resistance bands anchored to my door. Hamstring exercises don't seem to cause me any pain, it's mostly just quad type of exercises. Initially when I hurt my knee several months ago I actually started trying to adapt the low bar method, after coming a across a video that I'll share below. I actually did feel like it was helping quite a bit but I was doing bodyweight only since I was at home. I was even able to intervals with jumping lunges which surprisingly were not bothering my knees at all, yet regular lunges would cause sharp pain in my knee, the worst is when I would use my affected knee to support my working leg like in a reverse lunge or split squat.

But now however after seeing a doctor, he prescribed me some home pt exercises to do at home, and they include some half-squats which say specifically not to bend at the waist and to stay more upright, which is kind of the opposite of a low bar squat.

 
without watching, is he squatting facing the wall? i always show that to people. best way to keep the body from leaning forward, and to produce hip and ankle mobility, allowing the hips to take the weight instead of the knees.

If that hurts your knee, you arent ready. unless you can do a small number of them without pain. just work up from there.

i honestly could not DO a bodyweight squat for a long time period about a year to a year and a half in.
This is what he's doing in the video, requires a band to do properly

img_6336.jpg
 
Well deadlifts I have not been able to do since the lockdown, leg curls I can do just fine, I am doing them now but with some resistance bands anchored to my door. Hamstring exercises don't seem to cause me any pain, it's mostly just quad type of exercises. Initially when I hurt my knee several months ago I actually started trying to adapt the low bar method, after coming a across a video that I'll share below. I actually did feel like it was helping quite a bit but I was doing bodyweight only since I was at home. I was even able to intervals with jumping lunges which surprisingly were not bothering my knees at all, yet regular lunges would cause sharp pain in my knee, the worst is when I would use my affected knee to support my working leg like in a reverse lunge or split squat.

But now however after seeing a doctor, he prescribed me some home pt exercises to do at home, and they include some half-squats which say specifically not to bend at the waist and to stay more upright, which is kind of the opposite of a low bar squat.


Makes complete sense that lowbar squats felt better for you. I love highbar and front squatting, but I've had a lot of success with lowbar variations with patients rehabbing from patellar tendinits. Mainly because of less knee travel, less anterior (front) load in the knees, smaller knee angle (meaning less compression forces on the patella tendon) and also the load pushed back against the backside. It's a win win really considering what you're saying here, which is also why I asked about the DL. Try to just do a BW deadlifts/RDLs and tell me how it feels.

The reasoning behind your doctor not wanting you bend at the at the waist is likely because the "idea" is to isolate the quads and there's legitimate physiological arguments for this, however, if you're not ready for it it's just not right for you simple as that. Good PT is a cyclical process with continuous evaluation and progression. The version he's doing in the video with the band is not a poor choice, see the idea is completely limiting knee travel here for the reasons I listed earlier, AND, isolating the quads. It's a good enough exercises, and I know the evidence with the isometrics very well, but it's still not my favourite personally. It can work well, but if you get pain as you say, I'd much rather opt for a sitback quarter squat with forward lean and hips back (lowbar) or various deadlift variations, as they offer many of the same protections with the additional benefit of letting you engage your hips, glutes and hamstring much more, which in turn can help you in the long run.

Are you doing any soft tissue work (stretching, massaging, breathing excercises)?
 
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