An Executive Order that'll make a Democrat's Head Explode

[T-Bone]

Nope.

Prove me wrong, otherwise you're just being contrary.

-T

 

[Rod1]

Do you really believe we have an obligation to make legal immigration available to everyone who wants it? Does Mexico have a policy like that?

Yeah, in your example about the Mexican farmer, they don't have the resources to come here legally. Although they word hard and are the ideal employees for farmers, they cost our country a lot of money. They are unskilled, they don't pay real estate taxes to cover the cost of educating their kids and more likely than not, they are on one or more form of welfare.

We take 1.5m each year already and we have an illegal immigrant population of more than 10 million and we have to defend not taking more?

So $138m people want to move to the US, most of them in the 3rd world now.

Illegals for the most part are economic immigrants, so simply allow as much immigrants as the market for them demands, and then send them back home when the market dries, thats what Canada does to solve its agricultural labour shortages.

 

[Rod1]

Prove me wrong, otherwise you're just being contrary.

-T

Farmers dont really have the resources to do all the paperwork to bring farm labourers. Tech industries do.

 

[T-Bone]

Farmers dont really have the resources to do all the paperwork to bring farm labourers. Tech industries do.

In the age where everything is digital and online, that's your argument? That they don't have the resources to the paperwork?

It's the webpage. Then maybe you're going to argue that the infrastructure is not in place because there's not a lot of work visas for laborers. But you would be wrong on that too because there was an infrastructure in place.

See, everyone has choices. If the farmer doesn't want to go through the hassle, then he doesn't get his work is.

Before I could renew my driver's license online, I used to have to stand in line at the DMV. I really didn't have the time to do that. Time is a resource. I would have to take time off of work. But I did it. It was my responsibility or I don't drive.

You do realize a lot of people on welfare in the border states and they get a welfafe check, correct? If they are on welfare and just grabbing a check, I have a novel idea. They can continue collecting the check, but they work it off in the field. Now we don't nerd illegaks, and best of all, and you are really going to love this, we spare the farmer from doing that nasty time-consuming paperwork. Although I don't think anyone really uses paper anymore.

-T

 

[Rod1]

In the age where everything is digital and online, that's your argument? That they don't have the resources to the paperwork?

It's the webpage. Then maybe you're going to argue that the infrastructure is not in place because there's not a lot of work visas for laborers. But you would be wrong on that too because there was an infrastructure in place.

See, everyone has choices. If the farmer doesn't want to go through the hassle, then he doesn't get his work is.

Before I could renew my driver's license online, I used to have to stand in line at the DMV. I really didn't have the time to do that. Time is a resource. I would have to take time off of work. But I did it. It was my responsibility or I don't drive.

You do realize a lot of people on welfare in the border states and they get a welfafe check, correct? If they are on welfare and just grabbing a check, I have a novel idea. They can continue collecting the check, but they work it off in the field. Now we don't nerd illegaks, and best of all, and you are really going to love this, we spare the farmer from doing that nasty time-consuming paperwork. Although I don't think anyone really uses paper anymore.

-T

But thats on the side of the employees, im talking on the side of the employers. There is clearly a shitton of work for illegals, otherwise they would stay on their homes, so why is there is a disconnect between the government, the producers and the labour?

You would have far less social and economic side-effects of immigration with proper reform.

 

[T-Bone]

Farmers dont really have the resources to do all the paperwork to bring farm labourers. Tech industries do.

I just remembered that doing our tax forms on a yearly basis take an inordinate amount of resources. Again, time is a resource.

People who are not computer savvy cannot use tax act or TurboTax. And it's expensive to pay someone. So I like your analogy of not having the resources to do the paperwork.

That bolsters does argument that we don't have the time to do the paperwork to pay our taxes. I think I like your argument about the IRS paperwork.

-T

 

[Rod1]

I just remembered that doing our tax forms on a yearly basis take an inordinate amount of resources. Again, time is a resource.

People who are not computer savvy cannot use tax act or TurboTax. And it's expensive to pay someone. So I like your analogy of not having the resources to do the paperwork.

That bolsters does argument that we don't have the time to do the paperwork to pay our taxes. I think I like your argument about the IRS paperwork.

-T

Im not an immigration lawyer. So ill take your word for it.

Im not in favour of illegal immigration BTW.

 

[T-Bone]

Im not an immigration lawyer. So ill take your word for it.

Im not in favour of illegal immigration BTW.

You may not be, but you argued in favor of the position... well, maybe not fully, but you did try to rationalize it.

Good chat. T gotta go.

-T

 

[Rod1]

You may not be, but you argued in favor of the position... well, maybe not fully, but you did try to rationalize it.

Good chat. T gotta go.

-T

No, i argue in favour of sensible immigration policy where all sides win.

 

[clmetal]

Illegals for the most part are economic immigrants, so simply allow as much immigrants as the market for them demands, and then send them back home when the market dries, thats what Canada does to solve its agricultural labour shortages.

They do more than farm and I don't think it's a supply and demand thing; employers aren't loyal, they want to pay as little as they can so they get as much of the difference. You see corporations like Disney doing that with HB1 visas as well.

You see migrants do a lot of jobs that HS kids used to do like bus tables or wash dishes (I don't doubt that high school kids are less interested in part time jobs than they used to be).

You also see them replace skilled labor like brick layers, a team of non english speakers (presumably) illegals will take orders from a single qualified guy.

I used to go to California at my old job to warehouses where everyone working in the warehouse only spoke spanish, so I image they were illegal too. Warehouse managers would be bilingual.

And it's really the government subsidizing businesses; including those owned by very rich people. These people make less than a living wage and they get assistance (direct like welfare and indirect like public school education)

 

[KILL KILL]

No. The sad fact that the government doesn't like to tell us, but many of us already know, is America takes in many more poor people than people with skills... we need skills so that we can help America grow. By making them legal, I'm sure the Democrats will find a way to get them even more benefits that they have now.

Once legal, and poor, and have kids, they can file tax returns and qualify for the Earned Income Tax Credit. And they can go back several years.. That is a lot of freaking money. And as long as it poor with kids they will always qualify for that tax credit.

So there are disadvantages to making them legal first of all. Because that would be a greater drain.

-T

Why not just do what Reagan did and legalize whomever is currently here, collect taxes from them, enforce border security, and penalize companies that are caught hiring future illegals? Instead of spending millions trying to track down 11 million people (many of which provide value), we would be making money from their taxes. I understand you want these people punished for breaking the law (and I totally get it) but the method I outlined is far more beneficial to the country.

I also believe you underestimate certain skills. Being a farm hand may not seem glamorous, but it requires a certain amount of skill. In fact, there are those that utilize these skills by specializing in certain crops. They are far more productive than the average joe schmoe.

Of course, I could be talking out my ass, so I'll provide proof.

In Georgia, they began cracking down on illegals in 2010. Unfortunately, the crackdown cost the economy hundreds of millions of dollars because of a massive shortage of workers.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspi...rgias-immigration-law-backfires/#573ad978404a

To forgo a repeat of last year, when labor shortages triggered an estimated $140 million in agricultural losses, as crops rotted in the fields, officials in Georgia are now dispatching prisoners to the state’s farms to help harvest fruit and vegetables.

Mind you, Georgia's unemployment rate was over 10% at the time, so there were plenty of people available, they just weren't willing to do the work.

Without them, according to a University of Georgia study, farmers were about 40 percent short of the number of workers they needed to harvest last year’s crop.

Workers are paid via the volume they pick. Immigrants are so good that they earn $15-$20 an hour, which seems about right for such a shitty job. However, the new workers, that have no experience in the fields can't pick nearly the volume, thus aren't making a high enough wage to bother staying.

According to Dick Minor, president of the Georgia Fruit and Vegetable Grower’s Association, immigrants “are pretty much professional harvesters” with many specializing in particular crops.

Workers are paid by volume, with skilled workers typically earning $15 to $20 an hour. Unskilled workers earn much less, which is why most locals don’t want the jobs.

So, they started dispatching prisoners and those that were on probation to serve these jobs. Sounds good in theory, but that also didn't work out.
http://www.politico.com/story/2011/06/ga-immigrant-crackdown-backfires-057551

Georgia Gov. Nathan Deal’s program to replace fleeing migrant farmworkers with probationers backfired when some of the convicted criminals started walking off their jobs because field work was too strenuous, it was reported Wednesday.

And the state’s farms could lose up to $1 billion if crops continue to go unpicked and rot, the president of the Georgia Agribusiness Council warned.

A state survey released last week found 11,080 vacant positions on state farms that needed to be filled to avoid losing crops.

The turnover rate was insane, which meant no one stayed long enough to become proficient at the job, so even if they could meet the amount of workers needed, those workers were far less productive than guys that have spent the majority of their lives doing it.

This isn't an isolated incident either. It happened in Alabama as well (not just farms but poultry as well).
https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...consequences/2012/06/17/gJQA3Rm0jV_story.html

Immigrants make up 40% of Wisconsin's dairy workforce as well
http://wisconsinwatch.org/2009/11/immigrants-now-40-of-states-dairy-workforce/

Again, I understand your feelings that illegals should be punished for breaking the law by staying in the country illegally. However, I believe we should do what Reagan did and legalize those currently here. That way, we can save millions (perhaps billions) tracking down and deporting 11 million people, save billions to the economy by not depleting our workforce, and actually GAIN by taxing those people.

 

[Rod1]

They do more than farm and I don't think it's a supply and demand thing; employers aren't loyal, they want to pay as little as they can so they get as much of the difference. You see corporations like Disney doing that with HB1 visas as well.

You see migrants do a lot of jobs that HS kids used to do like bus tables or wash dishes (I don't doubt that high school kids are less interested in part time jobs than they used to be).

You also see them replace skilled labor like brick layers, a team of non english speakers (presumably) illegals will take orders from a single qualified guy.

I used to go to California at my old job to warehouses where everyone working in the warehouse only spoke spanish, so I image they were illegal too. Warehouse managers would be bilingual.

And it's really the government subsidizing businesses; including those owned by very rich people. These people make less than a living wage and they get assistance (direct like welfare and indirect like public school education)

Everyone wants to pay as little as possible and it doesnt really makes sense to have inflated prices on certain products.

Its similar to the tariffs arguments, some people are against, some people are for it.

The people that are against tend to see the value of low skilled well-paying jobs, the people that are for tend to see the value of low priced goods.

Cost associated with illegals, tend to be exacerbated by the illegal condition in the first place, as in turning an otherwise temporary worker into a permanent one.

I have this worker that works like a mule, its polite, punctual and honest, as smart as it gets for the kind of labor he performs and i pay him well, the dude also works in Canada under termporary work.

It a win for both Canada and Mexico, for once i get to profit from the guy for 8 months, Canada profits from the guy for 4 months, he gets to have his family living a Mexican cost of living while earning Canadian payments for a few months a year, Canada doesnt gets to deal with healthcare, pension or anything else, since the guy is happy to work temporarily and live here.

 

[RespectableDenizen]

We don't need reform. We need to enforce our current laws and evict every illegal in the US. We need to build the border wall/fence and keep them out.

Would you drones stop yapping about your fucking retarded wall? Enforcing immigration laws/deportations and stopping businesses from hiring illegals >>>>>>>>> a retarded wall any Mexican can tunnel under.

 

[Bloodworth]

Beyond backwards, why should there be such a large % of illegals in jail.
The tax payer gets crime committed against them , then have to pay for illegal criminals to go through the system.
Every illegal is jail currently for rape to murder to dwi and basic car accidents would have been prevented with a wall.
America should be about law and order and massive deportations

 

[chardog]

and his logic is complete bullshit. As if it doesnt cost a ton of money to house them

simply a double standard plain and simple.

 

[chardog]

Beyond backwards, why should there be such a large % of illegals in jail.
The tax payer gets crime committed against them , then have to pay for illegal criminals to go through the system.
Every illegal is jail currently for rape to murder to dwi and basic car accidents would have been prevented with a wall.
America should be about law and order and massive deportations

...

 

[T-Bone]

Again, I understand your feelings that illegals should be punished for breaking the law by staying in the country illegally. However, I believe we should do what Reagan did and legalize those currently here. That way, we can save millions (perhaps billions) tracking down and deporting 11 million people, save billions to the economy by not depleting our workforce, and actually GAIN by taxing those people.

I my of work, I have colleagues that are foreign born. The ones that tried to bring relatives over have to wait years. One guy has been waiting 9 years to bring over his brother in law... pakistani. I do think understand my illegals that come thru Mexico get a pass.

We can citems stats all day long.

Dies not change request fact, and all the rationalizing won't hell... but the hard working tax payers MUST noon great be prosecuted. We must underpay our taxes to boost the economy.

The problem with what Reagan did, and what you propose we do again: more illegaks cone in after legalizing the illegals. So that will never work.


-T

 

[KILL KILL]

I my of work, I have colleagues that are foreign born. The ones that tried to bring relatives over have to wait years. One guy has been waiting 9 years to bring over his brother in law... pakistani. I do think understand my illegals that come thru Mexico get a pass.

We can citems stats all day long.

Dies not change request fact, and all the rationalizing won't hell... but the hard working tax payers MUST noon great be prosecuted. We must underpay our taxes to boost the economy.

The problem with what Reagan did, and what you propose we do again: more illegaks cone in after legalizing the illegals. So that will never work.


-T

I mean, it's pretty cut and dry.

We can either deport 11 million people, costing the economy untold billions

OR

legalize them, keep our workforce, save millions that it would cost to track everyone down, and save economy billions that it would cost the agricultural, poultry, and dairy industries, while PROFITING by collecting taxes from those that are now legal.

It's a no brainier. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel as if you care more about punishing those that entered the country illegally rather than the welfare of everyone else.

As for the bolded, wouldn't your Trumpy wall fix that?

 

[clmetal]

Everyone wants to pay as little as possible and it doesnt really makes sense to have inflated prices on certain products.

Its similar to the tariffs arguments, some people are against, some people are for it.

The people that are against tend to see the value of low skilled well-paying jobs, the people that are for tend to see the value of low priced goods.

Cost associated with illegals, tend to be exacerbated by the illegal condition in the first place, as in turning an otherwise temporary worker into a permanent one.

I have this worker that works like a mule, its polite, punctual and honest, as smart as it gets for the kind of labor he performs and i pay him well, the dude also works in Canada under termporary work.

It a win for both Canada and Mexico, for once i get to profit from the guy for 8 months, Canada profits from the guy for 4 months, he gets to have his family living a Mexican cost of living while earning Canadian payments for a few months a year, Canada doesnt gets to deal with healthcare, pension or anything else, since the guy is happy to work temporarily and live here.

I take it you are against the minimum wages then. Should our goal to be to bring american wages down to those of poor countries, in the name of efficiency, even when those wages are unlivable, require government subsidies and the beneficiaries are (in many cases) already very rich (and have special tax arrangements)

And these people are not legally employed; so it isn't a case of an artificially high wage without breaking the law.

In many cases, Mexicans coming to the US are like Americans heading up to Alaska or for contract work in a war zone. It's traveling to make more. I understand that.

Remember too your Canada example (and I don't know Canada well so I could be mistaken, so I'll answer as if u said the US) means that besides the wage issue, that's giving the employer the option of paying less in benefits so they could favor them over US employees. Which describes our HB1 situation well.

 

[T-Bone]

I mean, it's pretty cut and dry.

We can either deport 11 million people, costing the economy untold billions

OR

legalize them, keep our workforce, save millions that it would cost to track everyone down, and save economy billions that it would cost the agricultural, poultry, and dairy industries, while PROFITING by collecting taxes from those that are now legal.

It's a no brainier. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel as if you care more about punishing those that entered the country illegally rather than the welfare of everyone else.

As for the bolded, wouldn't your Trumpy wall fix that?

Well do not have to track anyone down. Why dof people keep repeating that nonsense?

Mandatory E-Verify. Huge penalties to anyone employing illegals. We can still have work visas. Guest worker programs... but WE call the shots. Problem solved... no rounding up anyone. If they cannot work, they'll go hone... or stay and commit crime. I am betting on the former.

So, I guess you are against what I proposed in my OP and there is no changing your mind?

-T