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am i right?

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by jayyon39, Nov 11, 2005.

  1. jayyon39

    jayyon39 Blue Belt

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    I have a friend who has a really shitty lifting plan and wanted to gain mass and muscle, i said I would make him a new workout plan. I wanted to keep it pretty basic, so this is what I did.

    Pull day:
    dead lifs 4x4
    seated rows 3x6-8
    lat pulldown 3x6-8
    upright rows 3x6-8
    bicept curls 3x8
    random ab stuff, mostly medicine ball on a decline

    push day:
    bench 4x4
    inclince dumbell 2x6
    military press 3x6
    dips 2 sets max
    tricept extensions 3x8
    saxon side bends
    random abs,

    squat day:
    squat 4x4
    1 legged body weight squats 2x15 each leg
    lunges 3x8
    heavy abs 3x10 with 35 pound weights

    He doesn't think that this is a hard enough workout, basically because he is used to doing 2-3 different bicept lifts, same with tricepts, and lots of front and side raises and that kind of stuff. I tell him to trust me and that this is a good workout for size and strenght and that the energy that he normally would have used on the small lifts should be used in the big lifts. Do you guys think this is a pretty good workout for someone who doens't know much about lifting? I think I should add to squat day, but not sure what. Thanks
     
  2. MadDildo

    MadDildo Shame Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    That looks good.

    I'd have him increase his reps by 2 every 1-2 weeks for the ones starting >8 and either maintain or also increase the ones starting higher than that (if you increased them too, he'd probably see better definition from those reaching the 20+ range).

    Really, for mass-training, Urban included the HST link in his sticky. Tell your friend to learn that site by rote, he should never have trouble adding lean mass again.
     
  3. dexter c

    dexter c Borderline anorexic

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    Once he gets into heavy squatting/deadlifting, Im sure he'll realise how hard it is.

    I would rather choose from a list of Bent over Barbell/Dumbell rows, Heavy shrugs, good mornings, Kelso rows or overhead shrugs rather than the first three DL assistances you lifted, given the danger of upright rows especially.Id also switch up your main pull exercise between DL, SLDL, and DLs off a box, or rack pulls, depending on his sticking point.
     
  4. Urban

    Urban Savage Mystic

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    I no longer like or reccomend upright rows. Lat pulldowns are inferior to pullups. bent over rows are superior to seated. I don't like curls but he's probably not gonna buy what you're selling if you don't put them in (stick him on weighted chinups and see if he can still curl afterwards). and I have not had ANY success improving my squat with unilateral exercises.

    In addition, I think that military press is more important than bench (an opinion of mine that has changed over the last year), but a routine based around an overhead press is structured quite a bit differently. All in all I'd say there's not enough posterior chain work. Where is your deadlift assistance? Squat variants?
     
  5. Duncon76

    Duncon76 Blue Belt

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    What Urban said :)))
     
  6. jayyon39

    jayyon39 Blue Belt

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    thanks for the feedback. i'll swith pullups for lat pulldowns and bent over rows for seated. You are right about the bicept curls, he wouldn't let me take those out of the workout. Also, I figured for someone who had never really deadlifted or squated, lots of variations would not be the best way to start. Do you agree or disagree with that? Also, what would you do instead of upright rows?
     
  7. Urban

    Urban Savage Mystic

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    Just ditch the upright rows altogether. they're a posterior deltoid exercise and with bent over rows and pullups you're getting plenty of posterior delt work.

    On squats, there's two schools of thought, one agrees with you and the other says the more you squat the better off you are. I tend to agree with the latter and personally I respond with greater frequency. Consider some low rep high set work emphasizing good form. Something like 8-10 x 3 for assistance exericse or 20x1 etc.. there's a lot of flexibility here. The way my routine is right now, I'm performing a squat variant 4 times a week. so you may want to consider intermixing your first and third days a bit to spread out your work for similar muscle groups. ie, deadlift, front squat, and bent over row on day 1, squat, SLDL and pullups (maybe some overhead squats too) on day 3. get it?
     
  8. anvar

    anvar Guest

    if a program has 3 sets of 8-12 you know it's a bad program in my humble opinion
     
  9. rEmY

    rEmY Needs to eat more

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    why do you say that? thats what i do for most of my assistance movements. im trying to get a little hypertrophy going on, while still focusing mainly on strength with my main movement.

    so:
    main movement (bench, squat, dead, or variant thereof): 10x3, 5x5, 7x1, etc...
    supplemental: heavier multijoint lifts (pin press, rack pulls, weighted dips): 3x6-8
    assistance: lighter stuff (tri ext, lunges, hypers, etc): 3x8-12
     
  10. Mark Limbaga

    Mark Limbaga Amateur Fighter

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    ditch upright rows and put in pullups in place of lat pulldowns.
     
  11. Jay M.

    Jay M. Yellow Belt

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    So many questions could be answered if everyone visited elitefts.com. I have learned more there than from the 50 or so books I've read on weight training.
     
  12. rEmY

    rEmY Needs to eat more

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    its a great site, and theres a buttload of quality info there, but a lot of the ideas they present are not for the beginning lifter.
     
  13. Jay M.

    Jay M. Yellow Belt

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    That is true. Actually, Dinosaur Training may be better for the beginner in that respect.
     
  14. MadDildo

    MadDildo Shame Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Urban, is the reason you don't like upright rows strictly (as you have mentioned here) that it's a redundant posterior chain exercise? It's always been an akward lift for me, and has always caused me discomfort, but I must say, it's easier for me to fatigue myself with it than strictly DB shrugs (now, you add in the farmer walks with a concentric hold...that's another story).

    Lat-PD's are definitely inferior to any kind of pull-up, and seated anything to self-maintained posture lifts of the same angle.

    But you're not a fan of unilateral squats? I must admit, I never really increased my max squat that noticeably with them either, but I DEFINITELY noticed a difference on the basketball court.

    And you feel the military is more important than the bench for boxing/MMA? It took a long time to convince me of that for basketball (far too long, now that I think about it), but I'm failing to see your principle here for fighting?
     
  15. anvar

    anvar Guest

    From my readings the 3 x 8-12 was poineered in the 40's, they found that athletes who did one set at 50%, one set at 75%, and one set at 100% of their 8-12 rep max they would get stronger.

    Personally from my own exprence and my athletes...there are much better ways to get stronger/bigger/faster...
     
  16. graedy

    graedy Brown Belt

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    With that kind of routine my shoulders would deftinatelly overtrain. But if he can manage that much impact it seems to be ok with the chnages, the other posters suggested.
     
  17. Ted-P

    Ted-P Brown Belt

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    Unilateral for athletics.

    Depends on your goals I guess.
     
  18. Urban

    Urban Savage Mystic

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    I don't like upright rows because it puts your shoulder in a compromised position and can lead to injury. It's not a posterior chain exercise, I think you're confusing them for high pulls or snatch pulls.

    the thread starter said nothing of athletics or specific goals. Unilateral leg work probably has a great carryover to athletic endevors, but if your focus is squats and the big three (and IMO it should be for a while) then there are better exercises to spend your time on.

    I like military press more than bench for a number of reasons. If you consider what parts of your upper body are used the most when striking, shoulders imediately come to mind (this is after power is developed in the lower body, transfered through the core, etc. etc.). So if you're stuck in a position where you cannot use your lower body to generate power, it becomes an arm based strike, where shoulder strength is neccessary.

    Next, consider all the shoulder problems people get when benching big. Everyone I talk to who has shoulder problems says that overhead presses don't hurt them very much or at all. It's easier on the joint and for fighters and other athletes who put a lot of stress on their RC's, it only makes sense to me not to cause further abuse in the gym.

    The last reason is irradiation, you have to work hard to put something overhead, and muscles that aren't even needed for the lift or stabilization will contract. This allows more weight to be used in a movement, and more weight means more work for the CNS which ultimately means a more efficient CNS when push comes to shove.

    I like overhead presses, but I am not a fighter. If you find you get better results with something else, by all means, don't let me talk you out of it.
     
  19. rickdog

    rickdog Purple Belt

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    I Wrestle and Kickbox and I would take OHP over BP any day. Like you stated above, BP is where I developed my shoulder problems, early on. I dont have much discomfort, if any, when doing OHP's.
     
  20. Ted-P

    Ted-P Brown Belt

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    What?
    Are you implying that punching doesn't use the chest muscle?
     

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