All Time GOAT poll
- Thread starter Tachy
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Fair play on "length of time as P4P #1 on forums like this, that was a metric I hadn't considered
Agree to disagree on MW. Pretty common knowledge that the best MW was the generation after Andy (primarily the SF influx). Unfortunately that golden age ended with that generation and now we're back to having a lack of overall grappling / contenders drying up etc.
It (top 10 wins) WAS the criteria much more several years ago. One interesting change I've noticed is "title defenses" is the new metric instead. It really should be ranked wins total though because "title defenses" is entirely dependent on bullshit politics. I'm going to change my OP to reflect that...
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Greatness is a comparison of accomplishments, skills, and ability amongst peers. In MMA, it's much easier than most fans make it out to be. We have some clear cut divisional standouts who are obviously the greatest in their divisions. To determine the greatest among them (ignoring weight class), you compare their accomplishments. Who did it better? Ez pz.
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As far as dominance #3 Khabib doesn't really do it for me. He didn't fight Tony or any real tough fighters. He fought weak comp, got the title, and jetted. I don't see how you can compare him to these other legacies.
Fedor is my guy for the 10 year 30 fight streak. Other answers would be gsp, jones, and Silva. I like gsp the best out of those guys, for being clean.
Fedor is my guy for the 10 year 30 fight streak. Other answers would be gsp, jones, and Silva. I like gsp the best out of those guys, for being clean.
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It could be the case but that's another discussion.
Saying that the WW tittle contenders were strong while the tittle contenders of the divisions next to it, under the same banner in the same time frame were "weak" is silly revisionism.
If that was the case, we would have seen many more WWs enjoying the money and exposure coming with a tittle shot in the allegedlgy "weak" next division. It was not the case because it's silly revisionism, actually many tried and failed.
Odds and outcomes when contenders from both divisions met doesnt refflect what you say neither.
Shields was the SF MW champion in 2009 btw, yet he decided to avoid those same UFC contenders you call "weak".
Maia also showed us how serious is that alleged gap in caliber of competition between both divisions at the top that you suggest.
There is simply no basis whatsoever to claim that the guys GSP was defending against were "strong" while Silva's were "weak". Period.
In any case would be a slim, rather subjective margin. The supposed big gap in caliber of competition at the top is BS revisionsm. Odds defiinitely didnt refflect so. It's actually pretty silly if you understand prize fighting in such context.
Under such criteria, I'd say Jones/Fedor have the best case
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That is truly the good news. Now it is clear cut enough that anyone that DISPUTES a divisional GOAT is clearly either trolling or a hater of their GOAT. Just to cite highest divisions... Fedor is HW GOAT, Jon is LHW GOAT, Andy is MW GOAT, GSP is WW GOAT. At this point, those saying otherwise can be dismissed outright. EDIT: Only exception being those "positive tests means you are removed" people. There are some in this thread but not too many it looks like. Guess they say Izzy at MW? Maybe Shogun at LHW? LHW would be contentious for sure.
This, I'm afraid will always be a sticking point however. It isn't easy because everyone's definitions are different. That's why I like this thread... it gives an idea on what the actual criteria area to reflect why overall GOAT will always be entirely subjective. There is no agreed upon definition on what "doing it better" means exactly.
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1- Level of competition
2- Skill set/Fighting ability
3- number of top level wins
4- number of title defences
5- number of loses
6- dominance
7- finishing abilities
8- multiple belts
9- PED issues
10- impact on the sport
2- Skill set/Fighting ability
3- number of top level wins
4- number of title defences
5- number of loses
6- dominance
7- finishing abilities
8- multiple belts
9- PED issues
10- impact on the sport
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If 1 and 2 depends on the criteria of abysmal noobs and ratforums of your caliber they are void. So we better start at 3
Or better than that, let the knowledgeable fans speak and get another hobby while deleting your account and goofy username all toguether
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There really is, though. Compare their accomplishments. That's all it is.
Maia, Newton, Okami, Marquardt were all top 10 WWs
Henderson, Franklin, Sonnen, Horn, Vitor, Griffin, Steibling...all top 10 LHWs.
lmao, Fedor? His striking was sloppy as hell compared to now. You go into any gym (lmao at your "never trained" comment) and the trainers would likely chew your ears off on how basic he was
He gets murdered in modern mma. Even when his era was over and he was still in his 30's he was getting sparked
Jesus. This is sherdog I guess
Destructive ability? all fighters have that. (This is probably harder for casuals or those who never trained). Just depends how often they want to go there, with the risk of getting caught themselves.
Comparitively - Izzy, he doesn't need to, hes too good. Can do it when he needs to.
Anderson Silva - love to destroy people, but his method was baiting with his hands down chin out... and it was only a matter of time before that failed
Then a guy like Gaethje or Chandler who goes there all the time, at the detriment of their career.
Izzy has obv taken the best option. No fighter has fought on his schedule, taking as little damage as he has, while cashing in on champ + PPV money.
Love the effort though
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Indeed.
That's why we can talk about divisions deeper than others but once we get at the top of the food chain, about the legit chance of getting a shot at the tittle which is the goal of any prize fighter, to say the contenders in certain division are "strong" while those in the next division under the same banner in the same time frame, are "weak", is just pretty stupid. The competition has already filtered such depth
Maia struggled not just to fellow tittle contenders at MW but with gatekeepers as Muñoz, yet went to outclass the perennial #2 WW in Fitch right away and remained a tittle contender for a decade there.
Hardy beat Swick and got him a titte shot at WW. Okami beat the same opponent in more dominant fashion at MW and didnt got him any tittle shot.
Shields squeezed a SD on Kampmann and got him a tittle shot at WW. Marquardt KTFO the same opponent at MW and didnt got him any tittle shot.
And so on....
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Seems like you aren't confident in your GOAT candidate's fighting ability or level of competition.
This post proves it and demonstrates that you don't understand which skills translate up and down weight classes.
Historically grapplers do better moving down, it makes sense controlling a smaller body would be easier, especially if you have weak takedowns. You know, like Shields and Maia. It takes a special athlete to close these gaps moving up, like BJ Penn with his insane flexibility. He was able to do escapes and reversals that no other fighter could, it was hard to train for. Maia and Shields aren't as dynamic (flexible or explosive) on the ground, they benefit from moving down in weight trying to control smaller foes.
Strikers can do better moving up, especially if they have power. The speed differential allows them to enter and exit range comfortably to land faster and consecutively against the larger opponents. So many examples of this, including your boy Andy when he beat up punching bags Griffin and Bonnar. Forrest was a top notch grappler, had excellent cardio, and huge heart. He maximized his limited skill set to a title because he wanted it more than guys like Shogun (with knee problems) and don't run from me Rampage. Anderson came in and exposed him for the punching bag he is on the feet, making good use of the speed differential (and of course his vastly superior striking acumen).
Nice try though. GSP's competition was definitely better than Anderson's. It's not his fault though, you shouldn't be so defensive about it. That was just the nature of the UFC's MW division at the time. The very next one was the best one ever, I don't blind myself and pretend the current one is better than a division with Weidman, Rockhold, Moose, Romero, Jacare, Whittaker, Machida, Trtor. That was absolutely insane.
I mean and if you really want to die on that Fitch vs Maia hill, you know who else embarrassed Fitch? BJ Penn, a man that Anderson Silva has called the GOAT multiple times.
@pankrat, you call me a nerd but like this shit? Lol. That whole thread was debunked in the first post by knowledgeable poster @fortheo
Completely delusional. If you want to live in your echo chamber that's fine, but don't try to distort reality to force your truth onto us.
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Do you really think Im reading all that autism from such a monumental nerd? lol
Dude, get another hobby.
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It's ok you don't understand the sport, just don't harass other people for your lack of knowledge.
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Sí bebé, toma tu galleta
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No hay peor ciego que el que no quiere ver.
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To me the GOAT would have to be fighting in the modern MMA era because that is when the sport became legitimized. That includes athletic commissions, drug testing, proper training camps, etc.
The GOAT would have to be somewhat well known and relatable. I am sure Curling has the GOAT but nobody cares about him so it only matters to small group of hardcore fans.
Obviously the number of title defenses and activity/longevity in general is the most important criteria. The quality and variety of opponents is also very important. You cannot have a team that filters down you opponents to get a better record.
Beating top opponents in the weight class above is very important unless we are talking about a HW. It does not have to be for a belt.
The GOAT would have to be somewhat well known and relatable. I am sure Curling has the GOAT but nobody cares about him so it only matters to small group of hardcore fans.
Obviously the number of title defenses and activity/longevity in general is the most important criteria. The quality and variety of opponents is also very important. You cannot have a team that filters down you opponents to get a better record.
Beating top opponents in the weight class above is very important unless we are talking about a HW. It does not have to be for a belt.
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"How do fighters from another division do while moving up or down: the better they do the worse that division is" is a really weird stat to analysis the strength of a division IMO. Fighters fighting outside their class are more indicative of how that individual does fighting outside his weight class, rather than revealing any universal truth about the division they moved over to.
If we took that seriously then we'd say that Gus (used to be a top LHW) getting destroyed at HW showed HW was great (when it was utterly horrible when he moved up). There's 100 other examples but yeah I don't think it means much.
That doesn't debunk it at all. In fact, it partially confirms it. Keep in mind I think @acannxr is an excellent and intelligent poster so I don't want to put words in his mouth. But in that thread he is clearly talking about the MW division GLOBALLY rather than solely in the UFC. For example, when you read this in that thread...
You see multiple SF fighters. So when the actual merger happened (2013), if you're confining your analysis SOLELY to the UFC, you'd have to argue all these guys that were top of the foodchain (prime versions of Luke + Jacare + Romero + Kennedy + Mousasi) somehow made the MW division WORSE than it was before they entered, which of course is an absurd premise. So yeah 2013-2015 MW > GOAT MW IMO.
Oh look, a Sherdog poster critiquing a GOAT's technique. What a new and refreshing and non-shitty take. Especially critiquing a guy's striking technique that directly flatlined a who's who list of legends of the sport. How edgy.
