Alan Thrall is Wrong About Almost Everything

[JimRussel]

Chickens don't even have arms.

But if they did, they’d definitely do curls.

 

[wufabufa]

 

[DoomPatrol]

This shows my point. Keep in mind you said this, "I've never seen anyone pushing bigger weights than that who doesn't have arms to match their torso in a reasonable relative size. They might not be Arnold pythons, but they aren't going to be chicken sized compared to the torso". Even when I was well past the numbers you mentioned, and past being a beginner i still had tiny arms compared to the rest of my body. This happens to a lot of people who follow the bad advice you're giving. You're using your very limited experience and deciding it applies to everyone.

I gained a lot of muscle in my first year of training, but my arms hardly grew at all. I would have been in a much better position if I had done more arm work from the start. Instead I had to catch up later on, and that's much harder to do.

You seem to have a strange idea that doing assistence work means limiting how much practise you can do on the main lifts. How long does a few sets of curls take? I often just do rest pause on curls. Whole thing takes around a minute. Easy to fit in without interfering with the main work.

I'd be really interested in seeing a photo of what you consider to be chicken arms compared to your torso.

I'm not against assistance work, but assistance work is assistance for a reason. If you're not strong enough to know where you need assistance then you could probably be better off using that time practicing that main movement. As a beginner your form probably sucks ass and could use all the help and practice you can get. That fifteen minutes could easily be another 30 reps on the main lift.

 

[spdrew2143]

I'm not against assistance work, but assistance work is assistance for a reason. If you're not strong enough to know where you need assistance then you could probably be better off using that time practicing that main movement. As a beginner your form probably sucks ass and could use all the help and practice you can get. That fifteen minutes could easily be another 30 reps on the main lift.

Could you explain this one more time?

 

[JimRussel]

I'm not against assistance work, but assistance work is assistance for a reason. If you're not strong enough to know where you need assistance then you could probably be better off using that time practicing that main movement. As a beginner your form probably sucks ass and could use all the help and practice you can get. That fifteen minutes could easily be another 30 reps on the main lift.

So, when you’re a beginner, you should only go to the gym to exclusively practice the squat/bench press/deadlift?

You know you can do your programmed main lift work for the day and then also do other shit during the lifting session, regardless of what level lifter you are, right? You keep talking like it’s impossible or even inadvisable to do both. Maybe try this: let’s not call it “assistance work” and instead call it “other shit you can do when you’re at the gym besides SQ/BP/DL”.

And, like has been said, you keep sounding like an early 2000s turbo powerlifting guy.

I think we probably just disagree on this subject.

 

[monkeyrhythm]

Without a doubt rear delt work helps with my shoulder health (face-pulls or rear flys); I personally would have benefited hugely from including that from day dot.
I've always had niggly elbows, before this thread I hadn't considered that adding curls could help with that.

Maybe instead of "assistance work" we should call it "brohab exercises".

 

[Oblivian]

I'm not even saying to do the isolation work for vanity reasons or even assistance reasons. I'm also talking about variations and backdown sets designed to get extra hypertrophy work. I really wish I would have started doing all of that stuff sooner. The early 2000's mindset of "compound lifts only" and "train the movement, not the muscle" is not as prevalent, but obviously people still hold onto this. You see it most with Rippetoe followers.

You can just look at what @pokerandbeer says in here and see how illogical the mindset is. Everyone acknowledges newb gains are easy to come by. @pokerandbeer stated "the argument is that building a bigger base with hypertrophy oriented exercises help you fill out your frame faster and gives you a better base for long term development which is true." Based on this, why in the world would anyone who plans to move past the beginner stage pick something that would be inferior for long term results? It's just nonsensical, and you can see a lot of people who are far past the beginner stage that look back and wish they didn't follow the Starting Strength mindset.

Almost anyone should be able to make noob gains as long as you overload. It's really not difficult - more weight the next workout, more sets, more reps, etc. I get that Starting Strength is geared to be simple to follow and for the masses, but people need to realize it is just that. It's not some magical, proven optimal program for beginners. People should really look at some advanced lifters, most of which who have clients now, and see what they recommend. Look at their clients numbers after a few months vs. Starting Strength numbers. The war on isolation, assistance, and training the muscle for beginners should be over.

 

[JauntyAngle]

I have moved past the illusion that I know much about this stuff.

But I can say that despite doing quite a few compounds for 8 or so years my arms didn't grow that much. The last year I have worked much harder at curls and tricep push downs and stuff. More volume, but also just giving more of shit and trying harder, not just rushing though thinking "Bro stuff, lol, who cares?". And my arms have grown a bit, and my pressing feels stronger. And now I wish I had started doing all that stuff and giving a shit about it a long, long time ago. Probably from day one. I feel I would be 20% bigger ad 50% stronger if I had.

 

[Oblivian]

For people who are poor at benching (me), I can't imagine not doing extra arm work and bench variations for hypertrophy. Well I guess I can imagine it, because I avoided those forever and really regret it.

 

[JimRussel]

For people who are poor at benching (me), I can't imagine not doing extra arm work and bench variations for hypertrophy. Well I guess I can imagine it, because I avoided those forever and really regret it.

if you look at most dudes who bench a lot, their arms are enormous. Tested or untested, but especially the untested guys. Spoto, Sarychev, Hoornstra, that smaller Russian dude that holds world records, etc, etc.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Oblivian the starting strength program is what it is a general program for general strength. It has nothing to do with Aesthetics or long term powerlifting development. I don’t know why you cant understand it. The program has been tweaked over the years to work better for various populations as illustrated in their publications.

To sit there and say everybody that runs starting strength is basically a failure and waste of time because they don’t train for aesthetics to promote long term potential is just stupid small minded thinking.

Asgaard programming is what the book says......practical programming for strength training. It is really that simple.

If you want to do something else that’s great nobody said you have to do starting strength although most people would benefit from getting strong at the fastest rate possible for a novice in the most general useful way.

Damn Bill Starr for turning everyone in the lifting industry against each other for profit! When in reality it is a simple business and there really isn’t much complicated about it.

 

[JimRussel]

I just did 5x5 and then bro stuff when I started. I liked getting stronger quickly and drilling technique on the main lift, but I also knew right from the get go I wanted to look jacked too lol.

 

[Oblivian]

Oblivian the starting strength program is what it is a general program for general strength. It has nothing to do with Aesthetics or long term powerlifting development. I don’t know why you cant understand it. The program has been tweaked over the years to work better for various populations as illustrated in their publications.

To sit there and say everybody that runs starting strength is basically a failure and waste of time because they don’t train for aesthetics to promote long term potential is just stupid small minded thinking.

Asgaard programming is what the book says......practical programming for strength training. It is really that simple.

If you want to do something else that’s great nobody said you have to do starting strength although most people would benefit from getting strong at the fastest rate possible for a novice in the most general useful way.

Damn Bill Starr for turning everyone in the lifting industry against each other for profit! When in reality it is a simple business and there really isn’t much complicated about it.

Do you agree that Starting Strength is also marketed towards people who want to get past the beginner stage of lifting? It's marketed as a beginner program before moving on to an intermediate program. You literally stated that it is not an ideal base for long term development. That is exactly my point. For anyone who plans to continue lifting, they should look deeper than Starting Strength. The Starting Strength mentality of "stay away from isolation" and "don't worry about training your body" is not ideal for people who plan to get past the newb linear progression gains. They should start that stuff from the beginning.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

You haven’t really kept up with the starting strength world lately have you? The better coaches over there promote variations, assistance lifts, and isolation work.

It is no longer just do starting strength then do the Texas Method mindset.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

And no the program isn’t not marketed to get through it and then move on to intermediate. The program is marketed to novices to the barbell as most people at any given time are a novice.

 

[Oblivian]

You haven’t really kept up with the starting strength world lately have you? The better coaches over there promote variations, assistance lifts, and isolation work.

It is no longer just do starting strength then do the Texas Method mindset.

Shocking - the "better coaches" are advocating what we are saying to look into....

And no the program isn’t not marketed to get through it and then move on to intermediate. The program is marketed to novices to the barbell as most people at any given time are a novice.

Lol - this is one of the strangest arguments that I've heard. So you are basically saying Starting Strength is not designed for someone who wants to continue improving past the novice stage? It's not a good starting point for novices who plan to continue lifting? Good thing you aren't in his marketing department...

 

[ROcknrollracing]

YOu need to reread the thread again so I don’t have to repeat everything’s ive said about starting strength.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Here is the main takeaway you should understand.....Starting strength IS Not a powerlifting program

If you can understand that it would make this whole ordeal simple

 

[JimRussel]

As the most jacked person in the thread, I’m saying the main focus should be looking jacked in a shirt. That will automatically make you stronger, so you’re all set.

 

[NurseKnuckles]

As the most jacked person in the thread, I’m saying the main focus should be looking jacked in a shirt. That will automatically make you stronger, so you’re all set.

Its the only focus there is. If you focus is not focussing on looking jacked in a shirt then your focus needs more focus.

EDIT: I ripped my shirt today, so I pass the focus test.