Again modern boxing vs older boxing

[MRudi]

I may be(and lets be honest, i am) biased, but I have seen prime Frazier and after seeing last fight, I don't see him beating either Bivol or Beterbiev. Bivol would easily defend himself, nullify his attacks and secure very confident decision and Beterbiev would just crush him.
They are faster, agiler, better technically and Beterbiev is just stronger.
I shouldn't compare LHW with HW?
In the fight of century Frazier weighet 205. And it wasn't very lean and ripped 205. Both Bivol and Beterbiev weight the same and are actually taller than him.
Frasier in current generation would never ever be heavyweight. Cruiser at best, but problably LHW.
Of course we can say Frasier kills them both because they are Russians and it is OK to be racist against Russians, but I just don't see him winning with either of them. Same as I can't see them winning against Dubois.

And on the side page - for me both figth BvB were the best fights in last 10+ years.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Is agiler even a word? You're right about one thing and it's that Frazier wouldn't be a heavyweight today. He would be a light heavyweight most likely. Look at his stature. Joe had a small frame. Ali & Foreman were a lot bigger. As for Dubois he would've been too big and strong. I'd expect it to look like the Foreman fight where Frazier was just clubbed down in a couple rounds on size & strength alone.

 

[HuskySamoan]

Is agiler even a word? You're right about one thing and it's that Frazier wouldn't be a heavyweight today. He would be a light heavyweight most likely. Look at his stature. Joe had a small frame. Ali & Foreman were a lot bigger. As for Dubois he would've been too big and strong. I'd expect it to look like the Foreman fight where Frazier was just clubbed down in a couple rounds on size & strength alone.

100% Dubois would almost certainly smash the shit out of Frazier. I think OP is right, you transplant a prime Frazier to 2025 to fight top top Cruiserweights or Light Heavyweights, Im taking Jai Opetaia, Bivol, Biev etc to beat him. All these people that are supremely confident Ali would blister Lennox Lewis, Vitaly, Usyk etc. I'm not that confident personally, I'm somewhat skeptical people really are if a gun was to their head.

 

[Deleted member 609094]

I may be(and lets be honest, i am) biased, but I have seen prime Frazier and after seeing last fight, I don't see him beating either Bivol or Beterbiev. Bivol would easily defend himself, nullify his attacks and secure very confident decision and Beterbiev would just crush him.
They are faster, agiler, better technically and Beterbiev is just stronger.
I shouldn't compare LHW with HW?
In the fight of century Frazier weighet 205. And it wasn't very lean and ripped 205. Both Bivol and Beterbiev weight the same and are actually taller than him.
Frasier in current generation would never ever be heavyweight. Cruiser at best, but problably LHW.
Of course we can say Frasier kills them both because they are Russians and it is OK to be racist against Russians, but I just don't see him winning with either of them. Same as I can't see them winning against Dubois.

And on the side page - for me both figth BvB were the best fights in last 10+ years.

Absolutely. Size alone is such a disparaging factor with fewer weight classes and much greater breadth of difference.
Not least, the skillsets available to be taught like a blueprint.

The missing factor here though is balls to the wall grit. Fighters of yesteryear were typically life and death fighters. In the literal sense. And 15 rounds+ vs. what we have today.

Could a HW go 15+ rounds? Would they consider boxing knowing that such a higher rate of fatality existed?

Never the less, few of the old boxers would even be ranked today. But then I wonder how many from today would be willing to fight 50+ years ago...

 

[Doctor Grudge]

I dont know about this. Frazier is plenty mobile, has an incredible gas tank, and obviously hits very hard for his size. I dont see why he couldn't hang with LHWs and cruiserweights today.

 

[moosaev]

100% Dubois would almost certainly smash the shit out of Frazier. I think OP is right, you transplant a prime Frazier to 2025 to fight top top Cruiserweights or Light Heavyweights, Im taking Jai Opetaia, Bivol, Biev etc to beat him. All these people that are supremely confident Ali would blister Lennox Lewis, Vitaly, Usyk etc. I'm not that confident personally, I'm somewhat skeptical people really are if a gun was to their head.

What Ali are we talking about? A 74 Ali or a 67 Ali? I’m still confident that a 67 Ali would easily beat any heavyweight. Nobody moved like him or has anywhere close to his foot and hand speed. He was a welterweight in a heavyweight frame.

 

[LEWIS540]

Maybe boxing could be an exception, but in almost every sport, today’s athletes will trump those from 50 years ago.

Better training. Better nutrition. Better facilities. Better drugs.

Nostalgia bias will always skew our opinions, but you just have to look at sports that are actually measurable like swimming, weight lifting, track and field etc.

Now you can say if, for example, Frazier had access todays training he’d be even better, but that’s purely speculation.

 

[MRudi]

Maybe boxing could be an exception, but in almost every sport, today’s athletes will trump those from 50 years ago.

Better training. Better nutrition. Better facilities. Better drugs.

Nostalgia bias will always skew our opinions, but you just have to look at sports that are actually measurable like swimming, weight lifting, track and field etc.

Now you can say if, for example, Frazier had access todays training he’d be even better, but that’s purely speculation.

Even basics. There are more people, bigger talent pool and people are on average bigger.
For Ali to be so great talent wise outlier to beat all the competition thouroght that many ages is mathemathically possible, but very unlikely.

 

[LEWIS540]

Even basics. There are more people, bigger talent pool and people are on average bigger.
For Ali to be so great talent wise outlier to beat all the competition thouroght that many ages is mathemathically possible, but very unlikely.

Exactly.

We all respect Ali, clearly an absolute ATG, but it’s not like he was an invincible phenom, even in his own era.

 

[Mujeriego]

Is agiler even a word? You're right about one thing and it's that Frazier wouldn't be a heavyweight today. He would be a light heavyweight most likely. Look at his stature. Joe had a small frame. Ali & Foreman were a lot bigger. As for Dubois he would've been too big and strong. I'd expect it to look like the Foreman fight where Frazier was just clubbed down in a couple rounds on size & strength alone.

He's talking about Dubois beating the shit out of Bivol and Beterbiev. Hes saying "them" as in they couldn't go up and beat him.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

He's talking about Dubois beating the shit out of Bivol and Beterbiev. Hes saying "them" as in they couldn't go up and beat him.

I see. Yeah, neither would be able to jump up to HW and beat Dubois. In a recent interview Beterbiev himself said that Usyk would now be too big and strong for him and Usyk's a natural cruiserweight. Dubois is a super heavyweight.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

100% Dubois would almost certainly smash the shit out of Frazier. I think OP is right, you transplant a prime Frazier to 2025 to fight top top Cruiserweights or Light Heavyweights, Im taking Jai Opetaia, Bivol, Biev etc to beat him. All these people that are supremely confident Ali would blister Lennox Lewis, Vitaly, Usyk etc. I'm not that confident personally, I'm somewhat skeptical people really are if a gun was to their head.

Skills are one thing but the sheer size, strength & power of today's heavyweights isn't to be fucked with. It's more than enough to neutralize a skill advantage especially if you're too small for the weight class in the first place. The other day I posted something that's applicable here. I'm going to repost it.

Today's heavyweight division may not be the best in terms of craft but you're still having to compete against giants that can really bang and outmuscle you. That makes them extremely dangerous to anyone regardless of your skill level. No longer can a former middleweight or light heavyweight jump up and get their hands on any of the heavyweight world titles. You're unlikely to ever see it again. This happened in previous heavyweight eras. To even hope to be competitive in the heavyweight division nowadays you'd better be a natural cruiserweight at the very least. Otherwise expect to get your head knocked off your shoulders.

 

[StopDucking]

You guys think you’ve seen it all? I’vs had to argue on this forum with a guy who thought 5’10”, 185 lbs Rocky Marciano would beat Tyson Fury.

- 5’10”, 185 lbs
- Beat Tyson Fury

Let that sink in.

 

[StopDucking]

That being said, at LHW, Joe Frazier would be a menace. Not saying he’d win every fight but he’s not getting crushed by anybody. Stop it.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Maybe boxing could be an exception, but in almost every sport, today’s athletes will trump those from 50 years ago.

Better training. Better nutrition. Better facilities. Better drugs.

Nostalgia bias will always skew our opinions, but you just have to look at sports that are actually measurable like swimming, weight lifting, track and field etc.

Now you can say if, for example, Frazier had access todays training he’d be even better, but that’s purely speculation.

Better training methods, nutrition, facilities, and PEDs. Another thing is that modern fighters have had a half century to study past greats like Frazier. To watch film and learn from him and others like Ali & Foreman.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

You guys think you’ve seen it all? I’vs had to argue on this forum with a guy who thought 5’10”, 185 lbs Rocky Marciano would beat Tyson Fury.

- 5’10”, 185 lbs
- Beat Tyson Fury

Let that sink in.

Yeah but according to Usyk, “Size doesn’t matter.”

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Better training. Better nutrition. Better facilities. Better drugs.

Nostalgia bias will always skew our opinions, but you just have to look at sports that are actually measurable like swimming, weight lifting, track and field etc.

Now you can say if, for example, Frazier had access todays training he’d be even better, but that’s purely speculation.

Hm? Maybe this is a grammar nit pick, but isnt this a contradiction?

You're saying that athletes are better than before because of better drugs, nutrition, training - and presumebly that is not speculative.

But Frazier having those things making him better is 100% speculation?

To be clear, saying anyone is better than another person is entirely speculation, it isn't actually factual that today's tennis players are better than 20 years ago. But if you are establishing that present day athletes are better than previous eras due to more resources then that has to mean that if athletes from the past have those things they would at the very least improve.

 

[defjaam]

Bob Foster was a dominating, hard hitting light-heavyweight in his day. Frazier squashed him like a roach and I'm certain he'd do the same to Beterbiev and Bivol.
As far as today's heavyweights goes, I think it's a matter of styles. Frazier would be just a bad matchup for Usyk stylistically. Someone like Agit Kabayel wouldn't have much success against Frazier either.

Why is Bivol even in the discussion? What does he have to keep Frazier honest? This is a guy who defeated Muhammad Ali.

 

[mozfonky]

i'm glad the average joes on the forums i've run across over the years will not have any effects on any lists or halls of famers or get their hands on any real media that would build or kill anyone's legacy.

I never always agreed or always even liked the boxing press but they were never as bad as what I've seen on forums, never.

 

[mozfonky]

Bob Foster was a dominating, hard hitting heavyweight in his day. Frazier squashed him like a roach and I'm certain he'd do the same to Beterbiev and Bivol.
As far as today's heavyweights goes, I think it's a matter of styles. Frazier would be just a bad matchup for Usyk stylistically. Someone like Agit Kabayel wouldn't have much success against Frazier either.

Why is Bivol even in the discussion? What does he have to keep Frazier honest? This is a guy who defeated Muhammad Ali.

I was going to try to point that out, don't know why that wouldn't be known to some of these posters. Foster, great LHW, couldn't beat a single heavyweight of note of that era and could do nothing to Frazier and went on the record many times saying "Frazier was just like a train" and that he put that pressure on him and "I couldn't do nothing with it". Joe fought some big boys too, the flabby Buster Mathis, George Chuvalo and Oscar Bonavena were bigger than him. George and Oscar had very impressive physicques for the era and both were strong as hell.