adding 20 rep sqauts to 5x5? critique my routine

[Andrew D]

This is my first post in the S&P forum but I've been reading up on everything for a long time now. I started with the FAQ and browsing the topics. I wanted to be as well informed as possible before getting back into the weight room so I went through link after link on the D&S FAQ reading everything about fish oil and protein etc. The last thing i read was almost every article in the sticky from Keith Wassung. About a month ago was when i decided to start a serious weight lifting program.

A little bit more background on myself. I am recently turned 18 years old and a very lean 6'1 162 and those last 10 pounds have only just come in the past month. I have been training MMA for the past 2 years and have competed in a few grappling tournaments and smoker mma tournaments as well. I realized when I weight 148 i was still fighting 160+ because there weren't enough guys my size to fill out a couple of the tournaments in my area. The fact that I still placed pretty decent and only lost decisions in the finals against bigger guys motivated me to dive headfirst into smart lifting. I have a fight coming up in a few months and training could be going better but I would like to get as strong as possible first.

I decided to choose the Bill Starr 5x5 because I liked how it would build everything and its emphasis was on squats and core strength. This is how my program has looked for the past month.

Tuesday:

Bench Press 5x5 pyramid
ATG Squat 5x5 pyramid
BOR 5x5 pyramid

Thursday:

Military Press 5x5 pyramid
ATG Squat 5x5 pyramid
Romanian Deadlift/Deadlift 5x5 pyramid
Pullups 3xfailure

Saturday:
Bench Press 5x5 pyramid
ATG Squat 5x5 pyramid
BOR 5x5 pyramid

Basically after reading into the 20 rep squat set I really want to implement it somehow into this workout without messing anything up.

Also, something I've been wondering as well, is there a way I could add Clean&Jerks to this routine and would it be beneficial?

Overall, what are your guys thoughts on my routine in general and the specific questions.

Thanks,
Andrew Daggon

 

[the_harbinger]

Definately good movements you want in...but I'd have to say don't fuck with the original program. While it may not necessarily hurt you to implement them, there is, I'm sure, a specific reason why Bill Starr picked what he did. So, I'd say finish the program Bill Starr's way. You're sure to make plenty of gains on it. Once you're done with Bill Starr's 5x5 maybe customize it a little or make your own program.

 

[Jake Martin]

The 5x5 is a very taxing program as it is written. If you're going to do 20 rep squats, I'd not do them with 5x5.

 

[Deleted member 130905]

Just throw a 20 rep x 5 sets day here and there. Make sure you get plenty of rest though, the DOMS will be bad, especially if you're just getting back in to it.

 

[Andrew D]

thanks for the responses I think i\I'll take your advice and keep working in the program until i finish it and customize my own. I am making decent gains so far so thats good

 

[AnOddParadigm]

Both the 5x5 and 20 rep squats are good program, but only one at a time! You can alternate programs, but to try to do very taxing programs at once is asking for trouble. Since your program is still working, you don't need to change it.

 

[vince89]

Just throw a 20 rep x 5 sets day here and there. Make sure you get plenty of rest though, the DOMS will be bad, especially if you're just getting back in to it.

5 sets of 20? LOL! Have you done a 20 repper? Its brutal.

Keith Wassung recently wrote an article which supports the TS' idea. What you need to do is, 5 heavy sets of 5 and add 5lbs when you get all the reps. Do that for maybe 2 weeks (so thats like 30lbs increase in your squat if all goes well) then do 1 or 2 days where you do a set of 20 with a weight you can do for 10-12 reps. Then go back to your 5 heavy sets of 5.

This should build up your work capacity and tolerance for volume too, which will help you make gains on the 5x5.

 

[Deleted member 130905]

5 sets of 20? LOL! Have you done a 20 repper? Its brutal.

Keith Wassung recently wrote an article which supports the TS' idea. What you need to do is, 5 heavy sets of 5 and add 5lbs when you get all the reps. Do that for maybe 2 weeks (so thats like 30lbs increase in your squat if all goes well) then do 1 or 2 days where you do a set of 20 with a weight you can do for 10-12 reps. Then go back to your 5 heavy sets of 5.

This should build up your work capacity and tolerance for volume too, which will help you make gains on the 5x5.

Yep, go check my log. I just use lighter weights. Hence why I said the DOMS will be bad if you don't take care of them.

 

[stylesbjj**]

I think 20reps are best when interspaced with low reps.

 

[vince89]

Yep, go check my log. I just use lighter weights. Hence why I said the DOMS will be bad if you don't take care of them.

I thought the point of a 20 repper was to use a weight you can do for 10-12 and push past the pain barrier to squeeze out more reps?

 

[Deleted member 130905]

I thought the point of a 20 repper was to use a weight you can do for 10-12 and push past the pain barrier to squeeze out more reps?

There can be more than one point to it lol. I've done that as well. I like doing 20 reps for 5 sets with low weight (I'm talking 135 when I squat 335+). It's just a nice change up from constantly doing 5 reps and lower. I actually haven't done them in a while, maybe soon *strokes ghetto beard*

EDIT: I do this with bench press as well, only I usually do 12-15 reps. It's just good for a change and I usually only do it once every 2 months or so.

 

[vince89]

Yeh I agree its good to do high rep stuff, I think endurance helps with lifting heavy weights in a way. When you do 20 reppers youre constantly pushing it and telling yourself that youve got 1 more rep, that helps when youre doing heavy sets of 5 and you feel like giving up after the 3rd.

 

[Deleted member 130905]

Yeh I agree its good to do high rep stuff, I think endurance helps with lifting heavy weights in a way. When you do 20 reppers youre constantly pushing it and telling yourself that youve got 1 more rep, that helps when youre doing heavy sets of 5 and you feel like giving up after the 3rd.

Hell yeah. 20 reppers are a good change of pace. Try them the way I described with the 5 sets next time Vince, just use a pretty light weight.

 

[Donut62]

Why aren't you doing deadlift or power clean?

 

[Saith]

What's with having everything as pyramids? You need the volume sets to build strength too (on the 5x5)

 

[Lorenz]

Why aren't you doing deadlift or power clean?

This is what I noticed aswell... I'm just starting the 5x5 myself, but I eagerly look forward to every DL day!

 

[vince89]

What's with having everything as pyramids? You need the volume sets to build strength too (on the 5x5)

Yeh stay away from pyramids, I fell into that trap a few months after I started and my progress completely halted. Now Im back to doing volume (5 heavy sets with the same weight) and Ive put on weight and my squat has gone up. Also its good mental conditioning, come the 4th set youre gonna think "shit, theres no way I can do 2 more sets" but you get under the bar and do it anyway, and that will teach you to just STFU and lift. Or at least it has for me.

 

[hunto]

This is what I noticed aswell... I'm just starting the 5x5 myself, but I eagerly look forward to every DL day!

As well. 2 words.



Yes, it fucking matters.

 

[BlastBeats]

This concept is similar to what Keith was saying in his latest posting about throwing high rep days in here and there.

I also agree with vince that pyramids (at least for me in my experience) can plateau easily and its better to do a volume 5x5 type program.

 

[Old Man]

Keith Wassung recently wrote an article which supports the TS' idea. ... do a set of 20 with a weight you can do for 10-12 reps.

Here is what Keith has to say about doing a set of 20 reps with a weight you can do for 10-12:

Ok, I have to say this.

20 reps squats are great-no doubt about it, I have written about them and have promoted them, but there is a HUGE myth surrounding the 20 rep squats that is often repeated on message boards all over the internet.

the myth is that you can take your 10 rep max and by taking deep breaths between reps, you can somehow squeeze out 20 reps. Nothing could be further from the truth and this is never what was intended. The 20 rep method was primarily promoted by Peary Rader of Ironman. I grew up near him and knew him and his wife well and we used to talk about this exact same topic all the time.

When they say take your ten rep max, what they are REALLY saying is to take the weight that you normally do ten reps with-ie, ten reps that are moderate in nature and nowhere NEAR one's max and grind out 20 reps. The deep breaths between reps happen whether you want them to or not. There is nothing magic in the breathing that allows you to take your "ten rep max" and get twice as many reps-you can breathe all you want, you can hook up an oxygen mask, it just aint happening.

Their point was that guys were not squatting very hard-they were doing set after set with ten reps, but were never realy pushing it. Rader, McCallum and later Dr, Strossen were all trying to teach those guys that squats were one movememnt that you had to literally work to death-this was especially true of guys who were having a rough time gaining weight.

ok, I have gotten that off my chest

keith

This quote can be found here: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/archive/index.php?t-530923.html