ADCC 2013 Total Submissions

[Drew Foster]

Very thought-provoking insight. But controversial! Should we really only train the highest percentage submissions and ignore everything else?

How do you account for guys like Magid Hage beating high level competitors with his baseball choke from bottom? Or Marcelo Garcia reliably using his north-south choke at Mundials & ADCC?

I think it's a double edged sword. My opinion doesn't count for much, but I don't think it's necessary to just train only the stuff that wins at the very very top. If you're training for fun, you should do what you enjoy, that said it does annoy me when people try to do nothing but Peruvian Neckties and Barataplatas. But I don't think everyone needs to limit everything to chokes from the back either.

As far as the north-south choke I think it might just be a case of people not catching onto it yet? I'd be curious to hear the opinion from some others too. Because it certainly seems low risk/high-reward, and north/south and side control are not uncommon positions to attack from. I saw Lucas Leite and Cyborg both attempt them this weekend. Cyborg's was during the Absolute Finals with Buchecha at the very end, and he must've been exhausted.

If you're a competitor it probably would be smarter not to spend your time focusing on obscure finishes. Ryan Hall I think said that he was able to win a lot by focusing on inverting and shooting inverted triangles and 50/50 heel hooks. He said that overall he was a late purple or brown belt before he really learned how to properly pass the guard, and that not doing that earlier may not have been the best thing for him overall.

I think we have seen it pay off for people like Marcelo Garcia, Magid Hage, or Jeff Glover/Bill Cooper to take a pretty solid finish, nothing too obscure, like the guillotine, baseball, or darce, and be able to attack them from a lot of angles. I would just consider that to be someone finding something that works really well for them, that isn't overly obscure/tricky, and just a shitload of time perfecting it. If you want to throw MG's NS choke in that category I think it fits.

EDIT: And once again Shem said it way better and simpler than I could.

 

[redaxe]

I have less and less patience for weird gym tricks when it comes to grappling. Btw, there are a couple moves ... like omoplata and kimura ... that you are unlikely to finish anybody with, but are great for transitioning to a more dominant position and then a real submission. But most submissions are a bunch of hocus pocus that ends up sacrificing control and positioning advantage for a fantasy.

By that metric toeholds are basically garbage, they are like a spam attack that works for the sub maybe 1/50 times and are mainly used to avoid a stalling call.

You're sleeping on Kimura lock, that sub gets finished a lot. It was used twice at this ADCC. Sure, it can be hard to finish on a guy who's much stronger than you, but guys in your same weight class generally aren't, unless you're really lanky, in which case you're probably a triangle guy anyway. And yes, a lot of times its easier to switch to an armbar when they defend the kimura. But that doesn't make the kimura ineffective, it just makes it a good combo attack with the armbar.

Kimura from guard or half guard is pretty hard to finish, but good for sweeping, and the teabag kimura is so easy to set up from side or N/S.

 

[Shemhazai]

I saw Lucas Leite and Cyborg both attempt them this weekend. Cyborg's was during the Absolute Finals with Buchecha at the very end, and he must've been exhausted.

I forgot about Cyborg's attempt. (Did you mean Lucas Lepri, BTW? I'm afraid I didn't see his matches, will have to check them out.) It seemed to me that he was mostly using it to pin Buchecha, as he would probably have had to opt for the arm-out finish to get deep enough on the neck seeing how Buchecha defended, and he was probably looking to stay safe and keep his points lead with the arm-in. I could be wrong, though.

In any event, I think the NS choke is one that you have to be really comfortable with before it starts working well - hence, so many haven't yet fully embraced it, as they haven't really committed to specializing in it, it's just on their list of things to try from side control. Once you have a real feel for it, though, like Marcelo or Rani Yahya, it's a real killer IMO.

 

[Zankou]

By that metric toeholds are basically garbage, they are like a spam attack that works for the sub maybe 1/50 times and are mainly used to avoid a stalling call.

You're sleeping on Kimura lock, that sub gets finished a lot. It was used twice at this ADCC. Sure, it can be hard to finish on a guy who's much stronger than you, but guys in your same weight class generally aren't, unless you're really lanky, in which case you're probably a triangle guy anyway. And yes, a lot of times its easier to switch to an armbar when they defend the kimura. But that doesn't make the kimura ineffective, it just makes it a good combo attack with the armbar.

Kimura from guard or half guard is pretty hard to finish, but good for sweeping, and the teabag kimura is so easy to set up from side or N/S.

Some submissions have positional utility that exceeds their likelihood of finishing your opponent. I mentioned kimura and omoplata in my original post for that reason. You are not likely to finish an equal (much less better) opponent with an omoplata or kimura ... it happens only rarely. But you can gain positional advantage with them, and for that reason, they are quite valuable. You can back choke and armbar like crazy off a kimura grip. I highly recommend it.

Toehold actually gets finished fairly often, if you look at raw numbers. At least for 2011, there were almost as many toehold finishes as triangles. I'm not sure how many of the leglocks at this ADCC were toeholds. It's true that toeholds get used as "spam" all the time, but again much of the time that's not so much to finish as it is to fvck with your opponent, or as part of transitioning through leglock angles. People toehold to avoid the sweep by converting it into a leglock scramble. Or they toehold as a way to reverse position. Even if toehold has a relatively low finish-to-attempt ratio, its overall utility in controlling the positioning game is high enough that you see a lot of attempts.

I'm all for submissions that gain you advantage in the positioning game ... omoplata is a great example. And I'm all for high-powered submissions that allow you to threaten even people who are much better than you (armbar, heelhook, guillotine). What I don't care for are submissions that aren't positionally advantageous, which rely on you totally dominating your opponent, or which are 'tricks.' For the gym, they are okay and entertaining, but they shouldn't be the focus of your game.

 

[tap21]

Toehold actually gets finished fairly often, if you look at raw numbers. At least for 2011, there were almost as many toehold finishes as triangles. I'm not sure how many of the leglocks at this ADCC were toeholds.

In 2013 we had just as many toe holds as triangles:

Leg Attack Finishes (15 total, 8 heelhooks, 2 kneebars, 3 toehold, 2 straight ankles)

Other Finishes ( 26 total, 9 RNC, 5 armbar, 2 kimura, 5 guillotine, 3 triangle, 2 Darce)

 

[mcbjj]

Does anybody have a vid of the Kron Vs JT match?