International Active US Air Force member self-immolates outside Israel Embassy in Washington

[Deleted member 577981]

You also need to stop making generalizations about everyone in the damn world that doesn’t arrive at your conclusions. I’ve seen you do this multiple times where you assign negative qualities and stick people that aren’t you in that camp. This quote I’m capturing you took from a poster that supports Palestine. Like he’s active in the Hamas/Israel supporting Palestine and against Israel right now. And you’ve hypothesized that he doesn’t like this guy suiciding because he had a different political stance.

Wrong. You had no reason to assume that about him. Its this kind of thinking that drives partisanship.

you didn't insert the quote so I cannot verify what you are saying. it that's the case I will take note and never say that about him again.

 

[ShadowRun]

Yo

You put my name in in that quote ? Lol

 

[Osculater]

You put my name in in that quote ? Lol

Black magic!

 

[SmilinDesperado]

I think you just have trouble relating to a person who has love for a cause that is greater than themselves.

you are in no position whatsoever to evaluate the "good" he did with other "goods"he could have done. that's your job for you... you are barely qualified to do even that. but its not your job for him. there are 7 billion people on the planet. this guy chose this act. there are many other actors doing other things.... you are not qualified to evaluate if what he did was or was not the correct course of action because you cant know what he meant to achieve, what his inner motivations are, and you cannot evaluate the good it will do in the world either.


as a devout Christian i take real issue with you thinking martyrdom should be only the pervue of the religious. a secular person can be motivated by God in a way that is outside of religion and can achieve deep spirituality in this life and share similar levels of self sacrifice and love for the other too. I don't know if this guy had that or not but it is a possibility for certain.


you are basically just judging based on personal criteria and you can't really believe that YOU know enough to do that can you?

I'm genuinely surprised at the level of controversy this act has stirred up and I have to think that most people aside from the deeply contemplative have never given more than an hours thought to martyrdom so what we are mostly experiencing here is a partisan motivated shit storm that has little to do with the subject of martyrdom and a lot more to do with political alignment.

but if his intention was to get people thinking deeply about things he has probably made a dent with some. he has for me for certain.

It's amazing how you keep talking about how close minded and arrogant everyone else is when you are dripping with righteous condescension . How about stop trying to play arm chair spiritual advisor/psychologist as if you can tell me what I can and can't relate to?
It is entirely possible to understand someone and still come to the conclusion that they are foolish. I'm not confused about what's going on here. And you're talking about political alignment and partisanship as if I'm on the right. I'm disgusted by what is happening to the people in Gaza. I've literally been called a Hamas/ISIS sympathizer here.

In your silly worldview, nobody can say anything about anything then.
What is good is a mystery that only the gods and the winds can answer.
Setting yourself on fire, protesting with a group of fellow soldiers in uniform in front of the embassy, throwing a molotov cocktail at the Israeli embassy, Resigning from the military and finding other work to advocate for peace, going to Gaza to fight the IDF....Apparently, I'm not qualified to look at these options and use my brain to tell me which one of these things would be better or worse than the other. Total mystery.

You keep bringing up the population....that matters for what? There are 7 billion people on this planet, and most people are not the special snowflakes they think they are. Most people act in pretty similar ways. There's a reason why setting yourself on fire never caught on as a trend.

If it took a guy to light himself on fire in order for you to do some deep thinking about innocent people being killed in Gaza, you probably aren't as deep of a thinker as you think you are.
I'm not questioning the motivation of a secular person being a martyr, I question the circumstances and way in which he martyred himself. But as you said, I'm not qualified to evaluate whether or not setting yourself on fire is an effective strategy.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

It's amazing how you keep talking about how close minded and arrogant everyone else is when you are dripping with righteous condescension . How about stop trying to play arm chair spiritual advisor/psychologist as if you can tell me what I can and can't relate to?
It is entirely possible to understand someone and still come to the conclusion that they are foolish. I'm not confused about what's going on here.

In your silly worldview, nobody can say anything about anything then.
What is good is a mystery that only the gods and the winds can answer.
Setting yourself on fire, protesting with a group of fellow soldiers in uniform in front of the embassy, throwing a molotov cocktail at the Israeli embassy, Resigning from the military and finding other work to advocate for peace, going to Gaza to fight the IDF....Apparently, I'm not qualified to look at these options and use my brain to tell me which one of these things would be better or worse than the other. Total mystery.

You keep bringing up the population....that matters for what? There are 7 billion people on this planet, and most people are not the special snowflakes they think they are. Most people act in pretty similar ways. There's a reason why setting yourself on fire never caught on as a trend.

If it took a guy to light himself on fire in order for you to do some deep thinking about innocent people being killed in Gaza, you probably aren't as deep of a thinker as you think you are.
I'm not questioning the motivation of a secular person being a martyr, I question the circumstances and way in which he martyred himself. But as you said, I'm not qualified to evaluate whether or not setting yourself on fire is an effective strategy.

you are NOT qualified to evaluate this mans inner motivations and desired effects and make proclamations of certainly about them. you are barely qualified to do that about yourself. you can have an opinion but certainty and proclamations of certainly are beyond your purview. you can only talk about possibilities.

you said this--

But giving your life in the hopes that it gets enough attention to stop a bigger event on the other side of the world is frankly not rational and borderline narcissistic

you are assuming he actually believed it would STOP the war. but that is a very small minded assumption here. he may well have known that the war would NOT stop due to his actions. he probably did even. you are assuming this to make your position easier to arrive at but its ill arrived at based on assumptions like that. your whole premise is made up by you. you are strawmaning him.

he may, like many martyrs, have thought that he could change even a little thing... even one life saved or one life changed could make it worth his actions. there are so many possibilities that it seems absurd you insist on one that you have made up.... even if he was motivated by that desire... why assume he sees his actions apart from those of the many people fighting against what isreal is doing? why could he not see his sacrifice as a small part of a much greater movement? these are all possibilities for his motivations and you do a disservice to pretend to have certainly about his motivations and then slander him based on imaginings.

mainly I just think you haven't thought about it much at all beyond just your own assumptions.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

@SmilinDesperado

also you made my case for me. there are LOTS of people who have not thought through their position on Israel and Palestine. many people may well be motivated who have not thought deeply about the issue. that's kind of the point though isnt it? that alone could make his martyrdom justified.

btw I have thought about it deeply. that's not the kind of thought his actions have achieved in me. I doubt you could understand mine frankly or you would already have imagined the possibilities instead of pigeonholing.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

you are NOT qualified to evaluate this mans inner motivations and desired effects and make proclamations of certainly about them. you are barely qualified to do that about yourself. you can have an opinion but certainty and proclamations of certainly are beyond your purview. you can only talk about possibilities.

you said this--

But giving your life in the hopes that it gets enough attention to stop a bigger event on the other side of the world is frankly not rational and borderline narcissistic

you are assuming he actually believed it would STOP the war. but that is a very small minded assumption here. he may well have known that the war would NOT stop due to his actions. he probably did even. you are assuming this to make your position easier to arrive at but its ill arrived at based on assumptions like that. your whole premise is made up by you. you are strawmaning him.

he may, like many martyrs, have thought that he could change even a little thing... even one life saved or one life changed could make it worth his actions. there are so many possibilities that it seems absurd you insist on one that you have made up.... even if he was motivated by that desire... why assume he sees his actions apart from those of the many people fighting against what isreal is doing? why could he not see his sacrifice as a small part of a much greater movement? these are all possibilities for his motivations and you do a disservice to pretend to have certainly about his motivations and then slander him based on imaginings.

mainly I just think you haven't thought about it much at all beyond just your own assumptions.

The focus of my posts has not been on his inner dialogue, but on the stupidity of his plan, WHATEVER his motivations were. WHATEVER his plan was, if the plan involves setting yourself on fire, it's a stupid plan.
I don't literally think that he thought "If i just set myself on fire, the war will immediately stop". I think he thought he was contributing. HE can feel that. And maybe in some way his death is a contribution and did bring some eyes and thoughts to this. My criticism is that it is a poor way to contribute when he had so many other paths. You can say I'm not qualified or close minded to say that all you want, but I'm living in reality.
This is like going to a blood bank and slitting your throat in front of it in spiritual solidarity instead of just donating some blood. Use the young life, energy, and skills you have to do something that would be guaranteed to have a bigger, measurable impact.
A martyr has no idea how their actions will effect others, or if it'll have an effect at all. It's a silly gamble when there are a billion other options at your disposal.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

@SmilinDesperado

also you made my case for me. there are LOTS of people who have not thought through their position on Israel and Palestine. many people may well be motivated who have not thought deeply about the issue. that's kind of the point though isnt it? that alone could make his martyrdom justified.

btw I have thought about it deeply. that's not the kind of thought his actions have achieved in me. I doubt you could understand mine frankly or you would already have imagined the possibilities instead of pigeonholing.

Throwing your life away on the off chance that someone might give it a few more seconds of thought proves what? What if resulted in no one changing their mind? Was it still justified?
And again, I'm not talking about justification. What is justified is going to depend on the individual.
I said it's a stupid, ineffective way to contribute when the cost is your life.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

The focus of my posts has not been on his inner dialogue, but on the stupidity of his plan, WHATEVER his motivations were. WHATEVER his plan was, if the plan involves setting yourself on fire, it's a stupid plan.
I don't literally think that he thought "If i just set myself on fire, the war will immediately stop". I think he thought he was contributing. HE can feel that. And maybe in some way his death is a contribution and did bring some eyes and thoughts to this. My criticism is that it is a poor way to contribute when he had so many other paths. You can say I'm not qualified or close minded to say that all you want, but I'm living in reality.
This is like going to a blood bank and slitting your throat in front of it in spiritual solidarity instead of just donating some blood. Use the young life, energy, and skills you have to do something that would be guaranteed to have a bigger, measurable impact.
A martyr has no idea how their actions will effect others, or if it'll have an effect at all. It's a silly gamble when there are a billion other options at your disposal.

this is a much better post.

but its NOT a silly gamble. its inevitable that he will positively effect lots of people. and its HIS life to give to make that change. as part of a larger movement that includes all of the other actions that can be taken that you have listed and more than you have considered too. his actions contribute to the greater good. especially if you don't assume insanity or mental health issues. that's where the contemplation gets really interesting in fact.

you said this below. its all I have ever argued for on this topic

And maybe in some way his death is a contribution and did bring some eyes and thoughts to this.

but there are deeper things to consider that cant be shared on an internet forum afraid of spiritual things.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

Throwing your life away on the off chance that someone might give it a few more seconds of thought proves what? What if resulted in no one changing their mind? Was it still justified?
And again, I'm not talking about justification. What is justified is going to depend on the individual.
I said it's a stupid, ineffective way to contribute when the cost is your life.

you should have left it at your last post that seemed at least a little open minded and less certain about uncertain things.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

 

[ferrisjso]

Yeah, the guy who lit himself on fire in an attempt to protest and draw attention to something was totally sane. As sane as people who cut themselves or have more than one instance of taking sleeping pills in weak-hearted suicide attempts.

Should he have lived I doubt he'd tell you that he was in a mentally well state up to the moment he lit himself on fire. Mentally well people don't off themselves.

I lost two relatives to suicide. Alcoholism and loss of a wife to cancer played a major role in one and PTSD from Vietnam and loss of a home to fire were the major factors of another along with a history of depression on that side of the family.

The level of gaslighting is wild. It conflates support for the regime with mental stability and resistance with insanity.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

this is a much better post.

but its NOT a silly gamble. its inevitable that he will positively effect lots of people. and its HIS life to give to make that change. as part of a larger movement that includes all of the other actions that can be taken that you have listed and more than you have considered too. his actions contribute to the greater good. especially if you don't assume insanity or mental health issues. that's where the contemplation gets really interesting in fact.

you said this below. its all I have ever argued for on this topic

You're only looking at this through rose tinted lenses. Why is it inevitable for it to only effect people positively? What about the negative effects? What if it motivates people to harden themselves against Palestinians? "Far left anarchist ANTIFA guy that wouldn't comment on Hamas tactics sets himself on fire in front of the Israeli embassy" is a headline that can't produce any negativity? I think of this situation negatively and I am politically aligned with him. You're calling people close minded for not thinking positively, as if the world is only made up of positives.

his actions contribute to the greater good.

The question isn't whether or not it contributes, it's about how much it contributes, and how much more he could have contributed if he didn't kill himself.

but there are deeper things to consider that cant be shared on an internet forum afraid of spiritual things.

Your message would probably be better received if you weren't so abrasive.
The idea that someone, somewhere could be moved by his actions wouldn't be shocking to me, and I wouldn't argue against that. I have no problem with accepting that that is a possibility. It's a question of risk vs. reward, and whether or not this was the best option for a young man in his circumstances. I don't care what he thinks, because I think he was a fool (well meaning as he was) if he thought this was the best way to contribute.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

You're only looking at this through rose tinted lenses. Why is it inevitable for it to only effect people positively? What about the negative effects? What if it motivates people to harden themselves against Palestinians? "Far left anarchist ANTIFA guy that wouldn't comment on Hamas tactics sets himself on fire in front of the Israeli embassy" is a headline that can't produce any negativity? I think of this situation negatively and I am politically aligned with him. You're calling people close minded for not thinking positively, as if the world is only made up of positives.

The question isn't whether or not it contributes, it's about how much it contributes, and how much more he could have contributed if he didn't kill himself.

Your message would probably be better received if you weren't so abrasive.
The idea that someone, somewhere could be moved by his actions wouldn't be shocking to me, and I wouldn't argue against that. I have no problem with accepting that that is a possibility. It's a question of risk vs. reward, and whether or not this was the best option for a young man in his circumstances. I don't care what he thinks, because I think he was a fool (well meaning as he was) if he thought this was the best way to contribute.

I NEVER said it could ONLY effect positively, not once. so that's the answer to your question.

 

[ferrisjso]

You're only looking at this through rose tinted lenses. Why is it inevitable for it to only effect people positively? What about the negative effects? What if it motivates people to harden themselves against Palestinians? "Far left anarchist ANTIFA guy that wouldn't comment on Hamas tactics sets himself on fire in front of the Israeli embassy" is a headline that can't produce any negativity? I think of this situation negatively and I am politically aligned with him. You're calling people close minded for not thinking positively, as if the world is only made up of positives.

The question isn't whether or not it contributes, it's about how much it contributes, and how much more he could have contributed if he didn't kill himself.

Your message would probably be better received if you weren't so abrasive.
The idea that someone, somewhere could be moved by his actions wouldn't be shocking to me, and I wouldn't argue against that. I have no problem with accepting that that is a possibility. It's a question of risk vs. reward, and whether or not this was the best option for a young man in his circumstances. I don't care what he thinks, because I think he was a fool (well meaning as he was) if he thought this was the best way to contribute.

If he didn't kill himself and protested you would have made fun of him for that. If he turned to violence you'd have said there is no situation violence is justified. There is absolutley nothing he or any resister of the current order can do to get the approval of those defending it. Any good he could have done would have been met with "hes going about the wrong way this isn't the answer" because there is no right way to go about it because its not a sincere criticism.

Another thing is this guy was a servicemember. He was surronded by people with a differing ideology 24/7 and isolating himself from those people wasn't really an option. He probably saw and heard some shit that led to him being demoralized beyond that of your typical leftist. Actually seeing how the system works and how its completley dominated by people who are against everything you stand for will do that to you. Given this guy joined the military at some point he probably believed in the sincerity of the US govt and military to some extent. Having that trust shattered can really do a number on people.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

If he didn't kill himself and protested you would have made fun of him for that. If he turned to violence you'd have said there is no situation violence is justified. There is absolutley nothing he or any resister of the current order can do to get the approval of those defending it. Any good he could have done would have been met with "hes going about the wrong way this isn't the answer" because there is no right way to go about it because its not a sincere criticism.

Another thing is this guy was a servicemember. He was surronded by people with a differing ideology 24/7 and isolating himself from those people wasn't really an option. He probably saw and heard some shit that led to him being demoralized beyond that of your typical leftist. Actually seeing how the system works and how its completley dominated by people who are against everything you stand for will do that to you. Given this guy joined the military at some point he probably believed in the sincerity of the US govt and military to some extent. Having that trust shattered can really do a number on people.

This is your brain on blind partisanship. Where did I defend the current order? You didn't even read the post you quoted.
I specifically said I was politically aligned with this guy. You can check my post history.
Being against the treatment of Palestinians at the hands of US backed Israel does not mean you have to support/can't criticize stupid plans of action, even when they're well meaning.
Are we really at the point where saying "Setting yourself on fire in protest is not the best move" is a bad take?
I can say it with my full chest that there are 1,000 other more right ways to resist than self-immolation. How is that not a sincere criticism?


He was a 25 year old adult that has been in the military for a few years, in university at the same time, and was seemingly politically active, not a child. Unless he was mentally impaired, "I was blinded by the promise of America so i had to set myself on fire because i felt betrayed" isn't much of an excuse, and it was a BAD plan.

 

[idrankyourbeer]

<[analyzed}>

instead of drawing a gun on the guy who was ablaze, the embassy guy could have pulled out some hot dogs and marshmallows.

alright...there's a special place in hell for me.

 

[PhitePhan]

The level of gaslighting is wild. It conflates support for the regime with mental stability and resistance with insanity.

To be fair, a lot of pro-Israel posters outright say Palestinians should just give up and do what the occupying force wants- this is in the face of 70+ years of expansion and deal-breaking on Israel’s part… a bunch of easily manipulated boot lickers, if you ask me.

 

[BAM]

Are we really at the point where saying "Setting yourself on fire in protest is not the best move" is a bad take?
I can say it with my full chest that there are 1,000 other more right ways to resist than self-immolation. How is that not a sincere criticism?

It's echo chamber stuff.

Being an advocate for any idea, political or not, is to know your target audience, what are their values, what are they motivated by, what is in their interests, what moves them.

The people that are pro-Israel, dug in, are not going to be moved by self-immolation, the ones on the left being pro-palestine, that's just preaching to the choir. Really it's the normies in the middle, the ones that can be swayed and are the core of the Biden base that need to be targeted. The suburban wine mums and the neo-libs. And lighting yourself on fire ain't it, just makes him and those propping him up look like a death cult.

 

[Osculater]

He wanted to be a martyr but ended up being the hottest meme of the year