International Active US Air Force member self-immolates outside Israel Embassy in Washington

[PhitePhan]

I see invoking martyrdom and/or self-sacrifice trying to equate this act to someone dying to save the life of another as praising the guy. We can understand a commitment to a cause and be sympathetic to the insanity of it all, but still see it for what it was . . . an action taken by someone confused and not mentally fit.

He stated his reasons for doing what he did- and yes, it was because he held strong beliefs about the Israel/Palestine conflict.

Whether you want to call him a martyr or not, he died for something he believed strongly in, and some people will respect him for that. You can’t take that away from him by invoking vague “mental illness” or confusion- at least not at this point in time.

I think we all respect people who stand on principle and stick with their convictions, but there is most definitely a line that gets crossed where that respect might change to disbelief and cause us to take another stance more in line with seeing as the actions of someone in a mental crisis.

You think “we all” respect people who stand by their convictions? Have you been hiding under a rock the past few years? Hell, people can’t even make an educated health choice without being castigated as some loon or worse.

You’re obviously entitled to YOUR disbelief in this matter, but it’s ignorant and dishonest to handwave him as a “confused” mentally ill person based on this act alone. Perhaps there is more evidence that paints a picture of confusion or mental illness- I haven’t seen it though.

There is plenty of this on either side of this issue. Self-immolation should NEVER be glorified and seen as something other than the actions of a crazy person. I don't care how committed they might be to a cause or how strong the seem to be in their convictions. Just because his actions has generated such heated discussions doesn't mean the topic of those discussions are what he intended to happen. We're not necessarily discussing how any of us are re-thinking our positions as it relates to the Israel/Palestine conflict. We're all commenting about the mental state of this person and how crazy the idea of him doing this is instead.

The man killed himself and stated exactly his reasons, if you don’t like that, fine. I personally don’t agree with what he did or his reasoning, and I think he probably hurt a lot of people who cared about him, and in ways this was a selfish act… but I also refuse to condemn him as confused or crazy without more info.

I believe we are having a philosophical argument here, and so I don’t consider you wrong or me right… I have a serious question for you- would you consider a person who refuses to renounce a religious belief despite threat of death to be crazy?

 

[ROcknrollracing]

You do not light yourself on fire unless you have a real reason regardless of your mental state. I’m not saying he should have done it but I’m saying he had his reasons and who am I to judge him for it.

 

[Rob Battisti]

He could have booked a flight to Gaza and the locals would have set him on fire, then paraded his dead body around town.

It would be funny if it weren’t true

 

[DarthChen731]

I think there's a disconnect here where people use the term "mentally ill" and other folks immediately assume that that means "crazy."

Strongly believing in "Free Palestine" doesn't make someone mentally ill. Setting yourself on fire because "Free Palestine" is a sign of an inability to regulate emotions or behaviors in a rational way, and that is an indicator of mental un-wellness. That doesn't necessarily mean he's crazy, it means he's not making good choices, which is just part of being crazy.

 

[Fox by the Sea]

good stuff coming out of 4chan

 

[PhitePhan]

It would be funny if it weren’t true

You really think a white person is just killed for stepping inside Gaza?

 

[spamking]

He stated his reasons for doing what he did- and yes, it was because he held strong beliefs about the Israel/Palestine conflict.

I thought I acknowledged this . . . . but even so, I still think the dude was nuts.

Whether you want to call him a martyr or not, he died for something he believed strongly in, and some people will respect him for that. You can’t take that away from him by invoking vague “mental illness” or confusion- at least not at this point in time.

Nothing I say or do will cause anyone to change their view of this guy one way or the other. And I can most definitely choose for myself how I view him and how I consider his mental state to have been at the time he lit himself on fire.

You think “we all” respect people who stand by their convictions? Have you been hiding under a rock the past few years? Hell, people can’t even make an educated health choice without being castigated as some loon or worse.

Okay . . . fine. I think most of us might be able to respect someone.

You’re obviously entitled to YOUR disbelief in this matter, but it’s ignorant and dishonest to handwave him as a “confused” mentally ill person based on this act alone. Perhaps there is more evidence that paints a picture of confusion or mental illness- I haven’t seen it though.

We're just going to have to disagree on this aspect. There isn't anything that could possibly convince me that someone choosing to light themselves on fire displays a well adjusted and mentally healthy person.

The man killed himself and stated exactly his reasons, if you don’t like that, fine. I personally don’t agree with what he did or his reasoning, and I think he probably hurt a lot of people who cared about him, and in ways this was a selfish act… but I also refuse to condemn him as confused or crazy without more info.

I don't really care why he did it. So whether I like it or not doesn't matter. I don't see what more info you might possibly need to view him as mentally unwell.

I believe we are having a philosophical argument here, and so I don’t consider you wrong or me right… I have a serious question for you- would you consider a person who refuses to renounce a religious belief despite threat of death to be crazy?

Not sure what you're getting at . . . but I view what this guy did and the example mentioned as two completely different situations. Frankly, I find it insulting that you seem to be equating the two.

 

[spamking]

Any action has to be seen in context and based on intent. Self immolation is a recognized form of extreme protest, more commonly seen in the East like Tibet.

The act is still a sign of not being fit mentally. This type of act should never be celebrated.

 

[spamking]

You do not light yourself on fire unless you have a real reason regardless of your mental state. I’m not saying he should have done it but I’m saying he had his reasons and who am I to judge him for it.

And those reasons are only something that can be justified in the mind of an absolutely insane person.

 

[ShadowRun]

 

[PhitePhan]

I thought I acknowledged this . . . . but even so, I still think the dude was nuts.



Nothing I say or do will cause anyone to change their view of this guy one way or the other. And I can most definitely choose for myself how I view him and how I consider his mental state to have been at the time he lit himself on fire.



Okay . . . fine. I think most of us might be able to respect someone.



We're just going to have to disagree on this aspect. There isn't anything that could possibly convince me that someone choosing to light themselves on fire displays a well adjusted and mentally healthy person.



I don't really care why he did it. So whether I like it or not doesn't matter. I don't see what more info you might possibly need to view him as mentally unwell.



Not sure what you're getting at . . . but I view what this guy did and the example mentioned as two completely different situations. Frankly, I find it insulting that you seem to be equating the two.

You don’t see similarities between a guy burning himself to death due to his belief versus a person accepting being burnt to death due to their belief?

*I had persecution of Christians (some of whom were burned to death refusing to renounce their faith) in mind when I asked the question.

 

[spamking]

You don’t see similarities between a guy burning himself to death due to his belief versus a person accepting being burnt to death due to their belief?

*I had persecution of Christians (some of whom were burned to death refusing to renounce their faith) in mind when I asked the question.

Outside of the method of death? Nope.

Me choosing to sacrifice myself based on a threat of violence for not denying my belief in Christ is vastly different than choosing to kill myself in a fit of mental anguish. Comparing this guy to actual known martyrs is ridiculous.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

The comparisons to the Buddhist monks is a bit off, imo. What the soldier and they have in common is the act of self- immolation and doing it in protest for a cause they believe in.
I think we all understand the reason why this guy did this. That's not the mystery. It's why choose THIS act as the protest in the position that he is in?

Where this differs from the monks for me is that, 1, they're Buddhist monks. They believe in reincarnation, so they would just be taking themselves to their next life. And 2, they're directly impacted by what is happening. They're in the thick of it, it's their people, they are right there. They probably have different ideas of life and death, and maybe they don't even think that their death matters in the grand scheme of things. As crazy as it sounds to light yourself on fire, knowing what a person in that position might believe, I can understand it. I don't think you would have to be crazy to do it in this situation.

I don't know the soldier's religion , but , unless he believed in reincarnation or an afterlife....how do you throw away the one life you had?
The feeling of wanting to help people in need is understandable, but he just isn't in the same situation where this makes sense. Add to that, if he's knowledgeable of what is going on in the world over there, he has to have known that a war isn't going to get stopped because he set himself on fire, so, what was the goal?
I think this move would make a lot more sense for a Palestinian that's desperate and IN this situation..but an American in America? How are you plugged in this much to world news and not have an understanding of how media and these kinds of things work in this age?

 

[DarthChen731]

You don’t see similarities between a guy burning himself to death due to his belief versus a person accepting being burnt to death due to their belief?

*I had persecution of Christians (some of whom were burned to death refusing to renounce their faith) in mind when I asked the question.

My college thesis was on the effects of martyrdom in early Roman Christianity -- basically the argument was that people were literally thinking, "Holy shit this must be some real sauce if these people are willing to die this hard."

The difference here though is that, whereas religious belief can often apply to the entire lifestyle of a person, the belief in a political stance is generally very narrow insofar that it very rarely influences other aspects of a person's life. It is typically the result of a wider belief.

Bushnell's philosophy of life was not based on "Free Palestine" -- this was a belief borne of his philosophy.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

Sorry, but you're living in a fantasy world. The average IDF soldier will piss themselves laughing at this. For that matter, so will the average Palestinian.

Your life is the single most important and valuable thing you own. If you are going to sacrifice it, then it better be for some measurable Greater Good.

Now, having said that, it was his life and he was free to end it. And I'm free to laugh at him for being a delusional moron.

And honestly man I don't want to change your opinion unless it's just flat out wrong. People that think he was a fool for doing it? That's just an opinion and anyone can have it.

It's when people lie and pretend no good could possibly ever come from what he did or that they know what this motives are. Those are just ridiculous statements.

 

[KnightTemplar]

And honestly man I don't want to change your opinion unless it's just flat out wrong. People that think he was a fool for doing it? That's just an opinion and anyone can have it.

It's when people lie and pretend no good could possibly ever come from what he did or that they know what this motives are. Those are just ridiculous statements.

I'm sorry, but the idea one man's suicide can have any effect on the Israel - Hamas War is ridiculous. No IDF soldier is going to watch that video and think, "Are we the baddies?". Palestinians are too busy starving and dodging bombs to give a shit about a single American suicide thousands of miles away.

As for his motives, he made it clear he was protesting against Israel's, "genocide" of the Palestinians, and America's support of it.

His death was simply an extremely retarded version of the thousands of idiots who march and wave Palestinian flags while singing, "From the river to the sea..." It's a waste of time. Because only a tiny number of people have the power to change the situation in Gaza. And none of them give a shit about marches or suicides.

 

[PhitePhan]

Outside of the method of death? Nope.

Me choosing to sacrifice myself based on a threat of violence for not denying my belief in Christ is vastly different than choosing to kill myself in a fit of mental anguish. Comparing this guy to actual known martyrs is ridiculous.

Do you think it is rational to be killed rather than to simply renounce your belief?

My college thesis was on the effects of martyrdom in early Roman Christianity -- basically the argument was that people were literally thinking, "Holy shit this must be some real sauce if these people are willing to die this hard."

The difference here though is that, whereas religious belief can often apply to the entire lifestyle of a person, the belief in a political stance is generally very narrow insofar that it very rarely influences other aspects of a person's life. It is typically the result of a wider belief.

Bushnell's philosophy of life was not based on "Free Palestine" -- this was a belief borne of his philosophy.

I appreciate your input. I’d argue that he seems to be operating well beyond a simple political belief, and apparently more so from a moral code or value system that abhors what is happening in Palestine.

Again, I don’t know much about this guy, perhaps info has come out proving some sort of mental illness or other psychological problems.

 

[PhitePhan]

My college thesis was on the effects of martyrdom in early Roman Christianity -- basically the argument was that people were literally thinking, "Holy shit this must be some real sauce if these people are willing to die this hard."

The difference here though is that, whereas religious belief can often apply to the entire lifestyle of a person, the belief in a political stance is generally very narrow insofar that it very rarely influences other aspects of a person's life. It is typically the result of a wider belief.

Bushnell's philosophy of life was not based on "Free Palestine" -- this was a belief borne of his philosophy.

Serious question. What did the Roman authorities say about Christian martyrs at the time? I’d imagine something along the lines of: “Those guys are CRAZY, you’d have to be an idiot to follow them.”

 

[TheMaster]

He stated his reasons for doing what he did- and yes, it was because he held strong beliefs about the Israel/Palestine conflict.

Whether you want to call him a martyr or not, he died for something he believed strongly in, and some people will respect him for that. You can’t take that away from him by invoking vague “mental illness” or confusion- at least not at this point in time.

You think “we all” respect people who stand by their convictions? Have you been hiding under a rock the past few years? Hell, people can’t even make an educated health choice without being castigated as some loon or worse.

You’re obviously entitled to YOUR disbelief in this matter, but it’s ignorant and dishonest to handwave him as a “confused” mentally ill person based on this act alone. Perhaps there is more evidence that paints a picture of confusion or mental illness- I haven’t seen it though.


The man killed himself and stated exactly his reasons, if you don’t like that, fine. I personally don’t agree with what he did or his reasoning, and I think he probably hurt a lot of people who cared about him, and in ways this was a selfish act… but I also refuse to condemn him as confused or crazy without more info.

I believe we are having a philosophical argument here, and so I don’t consider you wrong or me right… I have a serious question for you- would you consider a person who refuses to renounce a religious belief despite threat of death to be crazy?

The attempt by some to paint him as 'mentally ill' is a lame and easily transparent attempt to discredit and dismiss his actions, and therefore not be forced to confront ones own overt support or even just silence and tacit endorsements of heineous evil being currently committed with this government and military's help.

"Good gosh, how could someone feel so upset about the mass killing of women and children in their name to kill themselves like that? He must be mentally ill"

It shows how low the bar has fallen, and to expect much different reaction from many, whose lives have been trivialized with media and distraction to this extent and whose most virtuous act is probably having to wait in the queue at Burger King, is much to ask.

 

[djacobox372]

Very telling that none of the mainstream media is reporting on this.