A Basic Study of Angles and Good Footwork (Gif Heavy)

Hm, interesting take on Frankie's footwork. I had never considered the fact that his wrestling made guys hesitant to stand and strike confidently with him. Thanks for pointing out how he got schooled by Jose...I hadn't seen that fight yet.

Cool thread
 
Hm, interesting take on Frankie's footwork. I had never considered the fact that his wrestling made guys hesitant to stand and strike confidently with him. Thanks for pointing out how he got schooled by Jose...I hadn't seen that fight yet.

Cool thread

It's a great fight, Aldo dominates the beginning but Edgar really starts to take over in the later rounds.

And like devante said, Edgar's footwork isn't exactly bad, but it's very overrated. However, he is good at angling off after he attacks and does use some good pivots to turn opponents once in awhile. Like from around a minute in to a minute 13 of the video you posted, it shows him either pivoting or stepping off to the left with a right hand to disengage safely and that's what I meant when I said he has good defensive footwork. Overall, I'd describe it as very active and confusing, but not fundamentally solid on offense.

Anyway, I don't mean to criticize your choice because Edgar's footwork is still better than tons of mma fighters. But at the same time, I'm glad you mentioned him because he's the perfect example of a fighter who announcers can convince you has amazing and technical footwork, when he mostly moves fast and moves a lot in ways people aren't used to dealing with.

Thanks for the video and input. I'm hoping more people will take a shot at analyzing fighters they like. If not, I'll probably pick a fighter I like (I'm thinking Makdessi or GSP, maybe both) and make another post like my first one to keep the discussion going.
 
Might be wrong but here it goes.
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At 0:08 he takes an outside angle off the right uppercut then lands a left uppercut. at 0:16 and 0:27 he takes that same angle so he can tee off on Glen Johnson with both hands, and even though both of his hands are up, it doesn't really stop the shots from getting through since, because of the angle, he has to defend both of Bernard's punches with one hand. And at 1:32 he takes that angle again and tees off moving forwards. Another cool sequence at 1:50-1:52 Hopkins pulls back as he's taking an inside angle to avoid Johnson's right hand and lands his own shot that Johnson can't counter because he's not in a position to.
 
It's a great fight, Aldo dominates the beginning but Edgar really starts to take over in the later rounds.

And like devante said, Edgar's footwork isn't exactly bad, but it's very overrated. However, he is good at angling off after he attacks and does use some good pivots to turn opponents once in awhile. Like from around a minute in to a minute 13 of the video you posted, it shows him either pivoting or stepping off to the left with a right hand to disengage safely and that's what I meant when I said he has good defensive footwork. Overall, I'd describe it as very active and confusing, but not fundamentally solid on offense.

Anyway, I don't mean to criticize your choice because Edgar's footwork is still better than tons of mma fighters. But at the same time, I'm glad you mentioned him because he's the perfect example of a fighter who announcers can convince you has amazing and technical footwork, when he mostly moves fast and moves a lot in ways people aren't used to dealing with.

Thanks for the video and input. I'm hoping more people will take a shot at analyzing fighters they like. If not, I'll probably pick a fighter I like (I'm thinking Makdessi or GSP, maybe both) and make another post like my first one to keep the discussion going.

I see. I don't take your post as criticism, because I am here to learn.

So would a good example of someone who has the opposite approach be Pac Man? He seems to have great offensive footwork and movement but his defensive skills seem a little lacking, perhaps because he has built a career on overwhelming his opponents with speed, power, and sheer volume of punches.
 
I see. I don't take your post as criticism, because I am here to learn.

So would a good example of someone who has the opposite approach be Pac Man? He seems to have great offensive footwork and movement but his defensive skills seem a little lacking, perhaps because he has built a career on overwhelming his opponents with speed, power, and sheer volume of punches.

Honestly, I'm not sure. I've only seen one or two of his fights and I didn't pay too much attention. But since the whole point of this thread is to encourage people to analyze footwork for themselves, why not put up a highlight and take a stab at explaining what he does well and what he does poorly? I don't think I've ever seen a fighter who relies only on speed, power and volume on an elite level. Usually what happens is those fast guys get REALLY good at timing their attacks and while they do things that are considered technically wrong, they do them at a time when the opponent is unable to capitalize because they are busy turning, reacting to feints or being otherwise occupied by something the "explosive/athletic/fast" fighter is doing.

For example, Frankie Edgar rushes straight in with full steps and squares up, but he gets away with it because he sometimes manages to get the opponent turning when he rushes, and otherwise knows that the threat of his grappling will usually pressure people into retreating and not countering properly. So is this rushing footwork wrong? On it's own, I'd say yes. But when it comes together with the rest of his game, it becomes very effective and enhances his naturally quick movement, to the point where moving straight away from him is probably the worst tactical footwork mistake you could make. Just ask Maynard or whoever that guy is he knocks down at 1:10 of the highlight you posted. Edgar can just change directions and move in one so fast that he often manages to catch guys with his right hand as they try to outrun him to avoid the potential takedown.

Anyway, what I'm trying to demonstrate is that even fighters who appear to rely on speed tend to have something going on behind the scenes. It's usually very subtle and, as in Edgar's case, can be almost completely intangible. But it's still there and still extremely significant.
 
Honestly, I'm not sure. I've only seen one or two of his fights and I didn't pay too much attention. But since the whole point of this thread is to encourage people to analyze footwork for themselves, why not put up a highlight and take a stab at explaining what he does well and what he does poorly? I don't think I've ever seen a fighter who relies only on speed, power and volume on an elite level. Usually what happens is those fast guys get REALLY good at timing their attacks and while they do things that are considered technically wrong, they do them at a time when the opponent is unable to capitalize because they are busy turning, reacting to feints or being otherwise occupied by something the "explosive/athletic/fast" fighter is doing.

For example, Frankie Edgar rushes straight in with full steps and squares up, but he gets away with it because he sometimes manages to get the opponent turning when he rushes, and otherwise knows that the threat of his grappling will usually pressure people into retreating and not countering properly. So is this rushing footwork wrong? On it's own, I'd say yes. But when it comes together with the rest of his game, it becomes very effective and enhances his naturally quick movement, to the point where moving straight away from him is probably the worst tactical footwork mistake you could make. Just ask Maynard or whoever that guy is he knocks down at 1:10 of the highlight you posted. Edgar can just change directions and move in one so fast that he often manages to catch guys with his right hand as they try to outrun him to avoid the potential takedown.

Anyway, what I'm trying to demonstrate is that even fighters who appear to rely on speed tend to have something going on behind the scenes. It's usually very subtle and, as in Edgar's case, can be almost completely intangible. But it's still there and still extremely significant.

i like threads like this, because it takes the next step; it takes into account the bad or limitations of what a guy does (footwork in this case), but you then attempt to explain how and why what he does is effective. Too many times guys say this guy is slow or has bad tech or footwork; which is half the battle, but the real hard part is appreciating the subtleties of his game so that you can see why he is effective in spite of phys/tech limitations. It's too easy to say he is fast hits hard has a great chin or is athletic; that may be part of it, but there is more to it ALWAYS...

so thank you for taking the next step...
 
Might be wrong but here it goes.
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At 0:08 he takes an outside angle off the right uppercut then lands a left uppercut. at 0:16 and 0:27 he takes that same angle so he can tee off on Glen Johnson with both hands, and even though both of his hands are up, it doesn't really stop the shots from getting through since, because of the angle, he has to defend both of Bernard's punches with one hand. And at 1:32 he takes that angle again and tees off moving forwards. Another cool sequence at 1:50-1:52 Hopkins pulls back as he's taking an inside angle to avoid Johnson's right hand and lands his own shot that Johnson can't counter because he's not in a position to.

Really good stuff, thanks for posting the video and your thoughts.

Something I'd like to add is that Hopkins does a really good job keeping Johnson in front of him by constantly punching with the arm Johnson is circling to. Any time Johnson goes to circle away when Hopkins is teeing off, Hopkins throws multiple shots with that side to keep his opponent from getting away. This allows him to take charge of the fight for extended periods of time in the highlight and assists his footwork, while neutralizing the opponent's. Remember, good footwork is as much about getting to angles as it is about preventing the opponent from getting to angles. And if he can't move the way he wants to because of your punches, then you're already a big step ahead in the battle of positioning.

As a sidenote that has nothing to do with footwork, Hopkins frequently uses a really sweet soft right hand that his opponent never sees coming in that video.
 
i like threads like this, because it takes the next step; it takes into account the bad or limitations of what a guy does (footwork in this case), but you then attempt to explain how and why what he does is effective. Too many times guys say this guy is slow or has bad tech or footwork; which is half the battle, but the real hard part is appreciating the subtleties of his game so that you can see why he is effective in spite of phys/tech limitations. It's too easy to say he is fast hits hard has a great chin or is athletic; that may be part of it, but there is more to it ALWAYS...

so thank you for taking the next step...

Well said. Every fighter's game is greater than the sum of its parts, and that only becomes truer and truer for the best of the best. As a result, sometimes things that are "wrong" end up fitting very well into the style of certain fighters. That doesn't make it "right", but sometimes it's really hard to argue with the results until someone more technically solid (like Aldo in Edgar's case) comes along to exploit the weaknesses.
 
Well said. Every fighter's game is greater than the sum of its parts, and that only becomes truer and truer for the best of the best. As a result, sometimes things that are "wrong" end up fitting very well into the style of certain fighters. That doesn't make it "right", but sometimes it's really hard to argue with the results until someone more technically solid (like Aldo in Edgar's case) comes along to exploit the weaknesses.

I used to say this awhile back when Edgar was a LW and the 1st BJ Penn fight and most people argued passionately about it like he had among the best footwork not only in his own division but the whole UFC. I would argue that his footwork was ok but definitely nothing to brag about. I predicted that Aldo would expose his "great footwork" and he did by being patient and managing the distance. In my opinion Aldo has much,much better footwork.
 
I used to say this awhile back when Edgar was a LW and the 1st BJ Penn fight and most people argued passionately about it like he had among the best footwork not only in his own division but the whole UFC. I would argue that his footwork was ok but definitely nothing to brag about. I predicted that Aldo would expose his "great footwork" and he did by being patient and managing the distance. In my opinion Aldo has much,much better footwork.

In my opinion, Aldo is a much, much better fighter in general until he runs out of gas. Round 1 of that fight was a lesson in range control.
 
Ok, I'm gonna do a second post talking about the footwork of GSP. It's really interesting because he seems to have developed good footwork to land single shots (mostly jabs) but usually shows very poor footwork and positioning when he wants to throw multiple shots or his right hand. Let's take a look:

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Here we see GSP use the same inside angle 3 times in a row to land strikes without being countered. Notice how with each strike he throws, he moves slightly to his left just before throwing it. The combination of him getting to an angle and threatening with 3 differing lead side attacks keeps Koscheck paralyzed. He knows that when GSP circles a jab will likely come, so he extends his arms to try and parry the first jab. As a result, GSP takes the same angle and throws a lead left hook, which Koscheck eats because he again extends his arms in anticipation of a jab. Finally, GSP keeps circling, then waits until Koscheck stops moving with him to throw an inside leg kick. This is what GSP does best, he takes an angle to land single shots that he sets up with the other single shots he throws.

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This gif I love. It shows how GSP's footwork gets messed up as he tries to throw his right hand, as well as how he uses his jabs and footwork in unison. See how GSP takes two steps as he circles to the left before Koscheck readjusts? He's able to do this because of the jab he feints. In case anyone is wondering, this is a great example of what people mean when they say to "establish the jab". Koscheck is so worried about the jab he keeps eating that he's noticeably oversensitive to it. Watch him extend and drop his right hand in response to GSP's jab feint, which leaves him wide open for the real jab coming in behind the feint that can now be thrown unobstructed, all because Koscheck was trying to defend the jab. So basically, Koscheck's fear of the jab allowed GSP to not only land a jab, but to circle and feel comfortable enough to throw a relatively rare right hand.
However, if you watch the right hand you see the problems with the footwork. GSP has moved to the left, but notice how he hasn't really turned towards Koscheck as he moved. His lead foot is pointing in the same direction at the finish as at the start, when it should turn to point right at Koscheck the entire time. When getting an inside angle, the idea is that you want your lead shoulder, hip and foot to all be on an imaginary line that splits your opponent in half, while their feet both point away from your center. That doesn't happen in this gif. Instead of pivoting and taking an angle, GSP is stepping to the side just to get his right hand closer to Koscheck. It doesn't actually put him in a better position. The reason he's "successful" in this gif is because his jab is preventing Koscheck from doing anything to counter. If, instead of freezing, Koscheck had circled around GSP in the same clockwise direction, he actually would have taken an angle as GSP moved passed him. This would have saved him from the jab and put him outside the cross, while leaving him in a good position to land his own shots.
Also notice that GSP's stance and footwork do not set up his right hand. His weight is too far forward and his feet are too wide, so he can only throw the right hand with the power generated by his back and arms, instead of his hips and legs. This is a common problem he has, especially in recent fights.
So the point is, GSP's footwork here looks good until you analyze it closely and realize that the threat of the jab is doing all the work, when he's actually leaving openings with his footwork.

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This is another gif that shows good and bad footwork by GSP. It's weird because he technically does control the range and exploit Condit's forward momentum, but he doesn't do it with good footwork. See how he squares up as he hops back? This takes a significant amount of power off of the cross he throws while actually creating an opening for Condit. It's a good thing Condit was throwing a flying knee and not a crane kick. GSP's footwork is linear and it puts him in no good position to counter with a straight punch. If he had maintained his stance as he hopped straight back or taken an angle and let Condit pass him, he would have been in a much better position to punch (with a straight shot if he moved straight back, or a hook if he moved to an angle and squared up). That could have been a knockout if it was thrown properly from a good stance.
So why did GSP choose to square up? So he could show us good footwork by taking an angle immediately after landing and avoiding the counter. His square stance allows him to pivot outside the right hand Condit throws after being tagged. That's good defensive footwork at the end, but poor counter-striking footwork in the beginning.

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This gif, however, shows pretty good footwork all around. You can't see the feet, but if you look closely you can see how GSP moves slightly to his right (an inside angle on a southpaw) to land the jab inside Diaz's punches, then pulls back out at a slight angle to avoid the right hook. Technically, he should have exited on a different angle than he entered from, but it's better than moving straight in and straight out.

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This is an interesting jab. GSP feints it as he steps outside Diaz's lead foot, but keeps the hand in place to land a backhand jab that splits the guard. It's another example of him using that jab to mask his footwork but, as usual, he doesn't take advantage of the opening with further offense.

Up until this point, you may have noticed that I haven't exactly been giving the highest praise to GSP's footwork. However, that's because I've only been talking about his boxing. The true genius of his footwork only reveals itself when you look at his wrestling.

Now I know this is the standup forum, but if you look closely you'll see that a lot of the footwork GSP uses to set up his take downs is actually used by strikers to set up knockouts.
First, the easiest thing to see is that he frequently baits opponents into coming forward with strikes by either hopping back or backpedaling, then using their forward momentum to help him close the distance faster and collide with greater impact to disrupt their balance. It's the exact same concept as him hopping back then landing a right straight on Condit in the gif previously discussed. It's a counter-striking strategy used by many great strikers. But instead of running people into strikes, GSP runs them into takedowns. This happens at 0:32, 1:12, 1:45, 2:32, 3:38, 3:49 and probably more that I missed.
GSP also uses the opposite strategy to pressure opponents with his jab and footwork, cut off the cage and shoot when his opponents have no room to back up. This is extremely similar to the classic infighter tactic of backing opponents against the cage/ropes then unloading power shots when they can't escape. His lunging in jab and superman punches assist him in cornering people, then he shoots once he knows he can drive them back into the cage even if they sprawl, just like how a pressure fighter blitzes when he thinks you're trapped. This happens at 3:25, 4:27, 4:45, 4:49, 6:01 and 6:20.
Another interesting strategy he uses is circling to bait attacks, then shooting to counter them. He does this almost every time he catches a kick in that highlight, but my absolute favorite example is at 5:30. Watch how GSP hops to his right and plants just out of range, then waits for his opponent to turn and try to strike. The opponent, who is still turning as he punches, ends up turning too far as GSP moves further away his opponent's right punch. The opponent ends up stepping his right leg forward to compensate and squares his hips up as he walks right into GSP's double leg. That's the kind of footwork great counter-strikers like Machida use to turn the opponent then leap in as they're adjusting or throwing ill-advises shots.

So my overall analysis of GSP's footwork is that it's perfect for 2 things: lead hand strikes and takedowns. He sets both of those up very well and mixes them up to keep opponents occupied. However, his footwork always causes him to end up square and open to strikes when he wants to throw his right hand. This makes it hard to give a concise opinion, because it is flawless to set up wrestling, good to set up jabs, and bad to set up right hands. On defense, he is usually smart about exiting on angles but he can get caught moving straight back with his hands down when he isn't planning to shoot and is just resetting (see Condit's headkick). I think it's fair to say that if GSP didn't have his opponents so worried about his spectacular jab (complete with feints, superman jabs, level changes and lead left hooks mixed in) then his footwork issues would be much more problematic.
 
very nice post " a guy "

here a little food for thought for you ,

koscheck right hand is very dangerous , normally a fighter would not circle into a big right hand like that , gsps coaches exploited that big rightfrom koscheck and attacked that side constantly , that way gsp was always aware of it and when it did come it was no surprise , excellent game plan
 
Don't you think that there is usually a give and take when it comes to strategy, footwork, stance and ability? I personally think it is better to excel at something than to be mediocre all around.

For example, I like having a narrow stance, almost all the time, because I like the illusion of greater speed it gives me when I'm kicking. It is sort of misleading to say that I have bad power punching because of my stance. It isn't what I'm trying to do.

If your assessment of GSP is on point, I think it shows he is doing it right. He excels at his game of jabbing and shooting, and if that means some other sorts of strikes suffer for it, that is ok.

Also, I have mixed feelings about making statements about how a fighter was wrong to move in at one angle and back out the same way. Saying, "you should always move out at a different angle," is a good platitude for beginners, because it is difficult to do and needs some encouragement, but really if you never back out straight and never the same way you entered, then you are always going to be predictable. If there is a clear logic to the way you like to step then against someone who is perceptive, you might as well not be stepping at all.
 
very nice post " a guy "

here a little food for thought for you ,

koscheck right hand is very dangerous , normally a fighter would not circle into a big right hand like that , gsps coaches exploited that big rightfrom koscheck and attacked that side constantly , that way gsp was always aware of it and when it did come it was no surprise , excellent game plan

Good point, that's exactly what I was alluding to when I talked about establishing the jab. It normally isn't considered safe to circle to that side as you said, but when you do it specifically to take the right hand away from the other fighter, it can take away their only weapon until they have little left other than standing around and flinching.
 
Don't you think that there is usually a give and take when it comes to strategy, footwork, stance and ability? I personally think it is better to excel at something than to be mediocre all around.

For example, I like having a narrow stance, almost all the time, because I like the illusion of greater speed it gives me when I'm kicking. It is sort of misleading to say that I have bad power punching because of my stance. It isn't what I'm trying to do.

If your assessment of GSP is on point, I think it shows he is doing it right. He excels at his game of jabbing and shooting, and if that means some other sorts of strikes suffer for it, that is ok.

Also, I have mixed feelings about making statements about how a fighter was wrong to move in at one angle and back out the same way. Saying, "you should always move out at a different angle," is a good platitude for beginners, because it is difficult to do and needs some encouragement, but really if you never back out straight and never the same way you entered, then you are always going to be predictable. If there is a clear logic to the way you like to step then against someone who is perceptive, you might as well not be stepping at all.

Of course there's give and take, that's why I broke the footwork down into different areas. But I disagree that it's not fair to say your power punching is bad because it isn't what you're trying to do. When GSP tries to power punch, it doesn't turn out well most of the time. He gets away with it because it's rare and his opponents are worried about other things, but that doesn't mean it's good. He shows an inability to throw punches in combinations with anything close to good technique, which is a weakness. It isn't one that's easy to exploit because he doesn't show it often, but it's there and worth noting that he doesn't appear to have the ability put himself into positions to land good counter punches or unload with hard shots. That's part of his style and it isn't wrong to specialize and build your game around exceptional strengths, but it is wrong to move in the ways he does to set up his hands.

I'm not saying this makes him a bad fighter or that he should change it or anything, because it's honestly probably far too late for that and would hurt him more than help. But in a thread about finding good footwork vs bad footwork it needs to be mentioned. Also, I wanted to point it out because I think it's a fascinating difference. He uses better footwork (even by striking standards) to set up takedowns than he does punches, which is really cool to me.

As for the entering and exiting on different angles, I mainly said that because GSP pretty much always exits on the same angle (straight left or back a little and left).
 
I've always thought GSP had great footwork. We don't see it as much nowadays because he chooses to wrestle more. Good post.
 
actually lauzon was trying to parry pettis's punches, so pettis feinted and the threw the kick, which was why lauzon's hands were down
 
Loving your posts A guy. Very informative

anyway you could talk about alexander gustaffsons footwork at all?
 
actually lauzon was trying to parry pettis's punches, so pettis feinted and the threw the kick, which was why lauzon's hands were down

Possibly. To me, it looked like he was trying to both parry a push kick and check an inside leg kick. It doesn't look like he was responding to a punch to the face, it looks like he panicked because he knew a kick was coming but didn't know what kind or to what target.

Loving your posts A guy. Very informative

anyway you could talk about alexander gustaffsons footwork at all?

Thanks!

And I could give it a shot, but I've only seen one of his fights and I was paying more attention to Shogun in it than to him haha. Maybe someone more familiar with him would be willing to try (I was hoping to encourage others to attempt some analysis as well with this thread) or if not then I'll look up a few highlights and see what I can come up with.

Request for Analysis of Anderson's footwork.:D

That does sound fun to do, although I might make you wait about 3 weeks so I can talk about the Weidman fight, which I'm dying to see.
 
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