Elections 2020 Democratic Primary Thread v5: Primary Season Begins

[xcvbn]

I hope the more rational people take note of how rabidly these Bernie fans attack even other Bernie fans, just because they disagree about election rules and stuff. It's a cultish intolerance. These are dogshit people.

Begging for Democracy to fall is the dogshit people stance and that happens to be you so save us the fucking theatrics

 

[Fawlty]

Begging for Democracy to fall is the dogshit people stance and that happens to be you so save us the fucking theatrics

I would be pleasantly surprised if you even voted.

 

[xcvbn]

If the DNC is irresponsible enough and selfish enough and stupid enough to give the nomination to someone will less votes then they have completely lost their way.

Its not up to the voters to make these hard choices yet. Its up to the DNC, and if they don't do the right thing it will probably sink the entire democratic party. They are really playing with fire here and I worry for the country should they make the wrong decision. How can anyone not see the writing on the wall here?

The DNC needs to step back and see how fragile our democracy is right now and not make stupid irresponsible decisions. I don't think the DNC realizes how serious this is. I am not sure we can recover from them blowing this.

First rule is to never appeal to the better nature of those who control the structures of power because they have no better nature

 

[franklinstower]

First rule is to never appeal to the better nature of those who control the structures of power because they have no better nature

Agreed.


My point is that if things fall apart the blame will fall squarely on the DNC and I think it is likely to happen in this case. People are not appreciating the seriousness of the present situation.

 

[jrams]

I hope the more rational people take note of how rabidly these Bernie fans attack even other Bernie fans, just because they disagree about election rules and stuff. It's a cultish intolerance. These are dogshit people.

You try to play the victim too often.

 

[skysolo]

First rule is to never appeal to the better nature of those who control the structures of power because they have no better nature

I have been watching every season of Narcos on Netflix and I couldn't agree more.

If there is one truth in the universe is that power corrupts.

 

[LuchaBear]

Is the two party system slowly collapsing? Things that weren't ever being focused on is now the focus because of social media, Trump and Sanders. These three things have completely killed the norm and how can it ever go back at this point? There's too much anxiety and hate and it's all coming from a deep distrust in the system.

Would it be so bad to move away from only getting to decide Republican or Democrat? On one hand these two voters seem so separated today more than ever but that seems to be more of a product of the system and what happens when other parties get added to the mix? Because in the end it's not exactly Republican vs Democrat, it's more like RNC vs DNC.

This system has caused an insane fan boy mentality where right now just about every single topic is split up into a Right vs Left argument, so what's the antidote?

 

[Fawlty]

You try to play the victim too often.

Not playing the victim at all. That's a very straightforward observation I made. These fools are impossible for reasonable people to deal with. And their entire politics is based on playing the victim (think about that for just a minute, and you'll see it can't be denied by a serious person), so you have it exactly backwards.

 

[LuchaBear]

@Happy Man

Going hard at Sanders' illegal immigration policies.

 

[PolishHeadlock2]

Chris Matthews is having a great year

 

[Deleted member 555403]

 

[jrams]

Not playing the victim at all. That's a very straightforward observation I made. These fools are impossible for reasonable people to deal with. And their entire politics is based on playing the victim (think about that for just a minute, and you'll see it can't be denied by a serious person), so you have it exactly backwards.

You've been whining incessantly about how Bernie fans have treated you despite regularly trying to provoke them.

 

[Jack V Savage]

"My guy" is Bernie Sanders. And I don't make excuses for him, I'm critical of him. Again, you're unhinged. Get your shit together.

I'll note again that the norm of super delegates being able to nudge a big plurality over the line has been broken, and now the rules are inviting contested conventions. The system probably needs another reform.

I think the dude has a lot of trouble separating concepts in his mind. Even granting his conspiracy theorizing about some kind of subversion of democracy in the process, it doesn't follow that America is better off with Trump as the president. If True Progressives got their heads out of their asses, they'd realize that Republicans being the default option for anyone unhappy with anything in politics is the main factor in policy being to the right of the preferences of the public. And for some reason, you never see that idiocy on the right. "Republicans failed to roll back the Medicaid expansion and subsidies for people to buy health insurance so I'm voting for someone who wants single payer now!" "The evil RNC is stopping Weld and Walsh from getting a fair shot at the nomination in 2020 so I'm not voting or I'll vote for the Democrat!" "The GOP didn't cut taxes for rich people and big corporations enough so I'm voting for Bernie! That'll teach them!"

 

[PolishHeadlock2]

This is pretty cool

Does he have a legit shot at taking out Graham?

 

[MikeMcMann]

Is the two party system slowly collapsing? Things that weren't ever being focused on is now the focus because of social media, Trump and Sanders. These three things have completely killed the norm and how can it ever go back at this point? There's too much anxiety and hate and it's all coming from a deep distrust in the system.

Would it be so bad to move away from only getting to decide Republican or Democrat? On one hand these two voters seem so separated today more than ever but that seems to be more of a product of the system and what happens when other parties get added to the mix? Because in the end it's not exactly Republican vs Democrat, it's more like RNC vs DNC.

This system has caused an insane fan boy mentality where right now just about every single topic is split up into a Right vs Left argument, so what's the antidote?

YES.

The TRADITIONAL party system is collapsing in most of the 1st World.

The Traditional Party systems in the 1st World had become corrupt and complacent. But worse the Politicians had become largely detached from any meaningful accountability to the voters. The same MONIED forces support all parties and make sure no real change happens other than playing a little around the edges.

The monied forces love the current system the control they have. The Politicians love the current system and the lack of accountability they have. The voters HATE it and stay home and do not even participate, rather than validate this corrupt system

And then those who support the corrupt system say 'Shame, Shame, you must hold your noise and vote so we can applaud ourselves on how great our system is'.

F*CK THAT!

What changed is that the Internet gave voice to what that 50% of non voters and a big percent of the 'Holding the Nose disenfranchised Voters' really want. That cannot be quelled.

Prior that voice had no platform. The MSM had little interest in trying to make the case that the reason people were not voting is because the system is broken.


Consider this as a parallel to the Arab Spring. People have now found their voice. Those voices are getting amplified as they realize how many people, in fact share that view, and then they demand real change. REAL CHANGE. And they won't be denied. If the parties have embedded anti democratic ways to try and stifle them, as the DNC has and if they assert them basically giving the finger to the electorate and their choices, you will see the voters tear the party apart as the only option. The better option. And I applaud them for that.

 

[MikeMcMann]

I think the dude has a lot of trouble separating concepts in his mind. Even granting his conspiracy theorizing about some kind of subversion of democracy in the process, it doesn't follow that America is better off with Trump as the president. If True Progressives got their heads out of their asses, they'd realize that Republicans being the default option for anyone unhappy with anything in politics is the main factor in policy being to the right of the preferences of the public. And for some reason, you never see that idiocy on the right. "Republicans failed to roll back the Medicaid expansion and subsidies for people to buy health insurance so I'm voting for someone who wants single payer now!" "The evil RNC is stopping Weld and Walsh from getting a fair shot at the nomination in 2020 so I'm not voting or I'll vote for the Democrat!" "The GOP didn't cut taxes for rich people and big corporations enough so I'm voting for Bernie! That'll teach them!"

A big part of the reason Trump beat a very establishment Hilary is because Voters are not motivated to get out and vote for status quo parties or politicians. They want that system CHANGED, dismantled, broken and that is happening world wide and you have to be blind not to see it.

You keep saying '...but Trump... BUT TRUMP... you need to go back to supporting our status quo Politician even if we subvert the process and cheat your candidate to force them upon you because ...Trump"


You fail to see the lack of awareness in your position. You and DNC are using Trump as a shield to subvert the voters choice and refuse change while saying 'Hey ...but you should realize you need to get in line and support our guy because ...Trump".

You ignore there is another option and a BETTER option. Let the VOTERS choose. Let the voters will change the party, if that is how they vote, and have the DNC and Party Elites get behind it.

And you know why the DNC and ELites should get behind it? Because...Trump.


You have created and repeat a false dilemma over and over as if the need to beat Trump is so high that the Voters should fall in line behind any DNC corruption and still support them because ... Trump, when the better option is the DNC simply not be corrupt, and act democratic and follow the will of the people and put that momentum behind beating Trump.

 

[Jack V Savage]

A big part of the reason Trump beat a very establishment Hilary is because Voters are not motivated to get out and vote for status quo parties or politicians. They want that system CHANGED, dismantled, broken and that is happening world wide and you have to be blind not to see it.

You keep saying '...but Trump... BUT TRUMP... you need to go back to supporting our status quo Politician even if we subvert the process and cheat your candidate to force them upon you because ...Trump"

Have I ever actually said "but Trump"? I think a big part of the issue here is that you have a kind of blindness. You've been spoonfed propaganda responses to every argument so you don't have to think so you get kind of stuck in a rut.

You ignore there is another option and a BETTER option. Let the VOTERS choose. Let the voters will change the party, if that is how they vote, and have the DNC and Party Elites get behind it.

You want to argue with someone who opposes letting voters vote, but that's not me.

You have created and repeat a false dilemma over and over as if the need to beat Trump is so high that the Voters should fall in line behind any DNC corruption and still support them because ... Trump, when the better option is the DNC simply not be corrupt, and act democratic and follow the will of the people and put that momentum behind beating Trump.

No, the very real dilemma that voters have in every presidential election is that one of two candidates will win. My position is that they should vote for the one that they think will do a better job. That seems to enrage you because you look at politics as being about affirming your virtue, punishing your enemies, and probably most of all (considering you don't even live in America) entertainment. I said from the start that we have incompatible views of what elections are about.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Have I ever actually said "but Trump"? I think a big part of the issue here is that you have a kind of blindness. You've been spoonfed propaganda responses to every argument so you don't have to think so you get kind of stuck in a rut.



You want to argue with someone who opposes letting voters vote, but that's not me.



No, the very real dilemma that voters have in every presidential election is that one of two candidates will win. My position is that they should vote for the one that they think will do a better job. That seems to enrage you because you look at politics as being about affirming your virtue, punishing your enemies, and probably most of all (considering you don't even live in America) entertainment. I said from the start that we have incompatible views of what elections are about.

Yes you constantly say iterations of "but... Trump".

You did so in the very post I replied to "...it doesn't follow that America is better off with Trump "

How you can be blind to that is surprising and I think that blindness is a big part of the problem you have.

The problem that is contributing to a majority of the voters staying home and checking out of the process is that they keep being force fed the 'lesser of two evils candidate" and being told that is why they need to get up and vote. You know the "but... Trump" argument you keep repeating. You need to get out and vote for the Dem because they are better than Trump.

Not because they are good, likeable, desirable, offer policies or things they want... just that they are less bad than Trump.

That is what lead to Trump facing off with the only candidate who unfavorability was arguably as bad as his instead of 'favourable' candidate. And the following blame game by people like you saying "you did not get up and vote for her, so you are the ones responsible for Trump now being in power". And then "when we do the same thing again and force Bloomberg on your, by corrupting the process I hope you learn from the last time, and this time get out and vote, because... Trump".


These are the life blood of your arguments. Instead of "lets actually blame the DNC and the Elites for not allowing the people a choice that they want and would support because instead they are desperate to cling to power. Lets have the DNC and Elites put that aside, because ...Trump".


The latter would be a far better position for you to take Jack and a far better way to apportion blame. But we know you won't do that.

 

[PEB]

 

[Jack V Savage]

Yes you constantly say iterations of "but... Trump".

You did so in the very post I replied to "...it doesn't follow that America is better off with Trump "

So you just mean "but elections are about deciding who sets policy"? If you think that Trump should be president, you should defend that rather than try to change the subject.

Not because they are good, likeable, desirable, offer policies or things they want... just that they are less bad than Trump.

Trump has only been in one election so far. In every election, there are two likely winners, and you choose the better one. That's how it works. This notion that everyone is entitled to their ideal candidate is silly. Get over yourself.

That is what lead to Trump facing off with the only candidate who unfavorability was arguably as bad as his instead of 'favourable' candidate. And the following blame game by people like you saying "you did not get up and vote for her, so you are the ones responsible for Trump now being in power".

Everyone who voted for Trump or who didn't vote has a share in him being in power. That's just common sense.

The problem seems to me that you have a way overly grand vision of your own importance that essentially makes it impossible for you to participate in society.