Which is more realistic? Shotokan or Kyokushin?

surfer dude said:
Shotokan it is not a good big man karate. I say that being a shotokaner the size of JDS.

The "superior technique" part I think you are way off on. As I would equate superior to effective. And KK and the other full contact systems win that one easy.
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I think if you trained like this Englishman, yeah, you could be a good big man Shotokan karate-ka.



But he moved to Japan and he focused on JKA style competition. You could not get that level of Shotokan in North America. Also, he's not facing people his size nor in a ruleset that allows you to absorb damage.

Interesting that he says "it's not so much Shotokan as i want to do THAT" referring to how quickly Shotokan karate-ka were able to close distance so quickly.

IMO, if you can do what he does, as long as you're not caught unaware, you'd take most people in the street.
 
surfer dude said:
I hold a sandan in Shotokan, and I endorse this pov.

Machida's dad said it best, Shotokan is exercise, when they want to practice fighting they do Machida Karate do.

I have trained with 3 different Shotokan groups here in central Florida, and have yet to have any of them do jiyu kumite while I was there. The only yudansha we did any with were the ones we invited to our dojo. And, their fighting was one dimensional and uninspired. It was evident they did not do much of it in their dojos. Yet here they were, black belts in the system. :(

The one redeeming quality of the system is it has the capacity to be a good blunt force trauma delivery system. And around here, they mostly suck at that part. Cavorting about in pajamas aka LARPing would be far too accurate an appraisal, sad to say. It is a far cry from how they train it in Japan.
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Why did you waiste all that time to sandan if you hold these views about Shotokan?
 
I've been doing Shotokan 6.5 years (1st Dan) and have recently moved to a place with no Shotokan, so I'm switching over to Kyokushin.

My Shotokan club practiced continuous medium contact (ie. control to the head, hard to the body) sparring rather than a stop/start WKF tournament style of sparring. I haven't had much Kyokushin training yet, but I found the class itself very similar. Some observations I found were Kyokushin seems maybe more static (standing in one place) rather than moving back and forth doing combinations. Less emphasis on correcting the form of beginners or on Kata. Less emphasis on getting in and out and changing angles when doing partner work too.

They do hit harder and take a hit better though! I'd say Kyokushin would be better in a real confrontation, but not by as big a margin as one may think.
 
spacetime said:
There was a karateka finalist in point fighting (many years ago) famous for roaming the streets and beating the living daylights out of bouncers, security guards all being boxers or Muay Thai guys. This karateka did not study anything other than Karate and was a finalist in world championship events. He was a troubled individual needless to say, but he could fight for real. His style was not even full contact karate - but the Shotokan style tradition...
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He's so famous nobody knows who the fuck he is.

Just like the guy from Okinawa that kicked a samurai off a horse.

Yes all bouncers and security guards are "Muay Thai guys", all very good too, confirmed that
 
spacetime said:
Why did you waste all that time to sandan if you hold these views about Shotokan?
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This was the inevitable question given my posts in this thread.

I have been doing martial arts and combat sports since 1980. I will be doing them until either I gork or cannot physically participate. Any experienced martial artist or combat sports athlete here, knows how high the attrition rate is. People do not last. Life, lack of desire, injury, something will result in their walking away. A few come back, fewer stay when they do, most stay gone, or training becomes a revolving door at best.

The point being: If you make training a lifelong thing, and you do not die prematurely, you have time to try a bunch of different ones if you choose to. I train shotokan because a couple of my long time friends do it, and I train with them. And it has never been the only thing I train.

And there is value in the training, particularly if trained with the vigor karateka such as Kanazawa Kancho have provided the example for. It is a damned shame that the dojos in my area lack that intensity.
 
Inquisitus said:
I think if you trained like this Englishman, yeah, you could be a good big man Shotokan karate-ka.



But he moved to Japan and he focused on JKA style competition. You could not get that level of Shotokan in North America. Also, he's not facing people his size nor in a ruleset that allows you to absorb damage.

Interesting that he says "it's not so much Shotokan as i want to do THAT" referring to how quickly Shotokan karate-ka were able to close distance so quickly.

IMO, if you can do what he does, as long as you're not caught unaware, you'd take most people in the street.
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I was referring to the kata and kihon, when saying it is not a good karate for big guys. It is an art started in Okinawa, a people with an average height that does not exactly rival Vikings. :p Subsequently, they are not well suited to making us large folk look good doing them. There are of course exceptions, I am not one of them.

And I am familiar with Shotokan training outside of my area. Having trained under higher ranking JKA yudansha from elsewhere. And having a broadband internet connection myself. :wink: But as you seemed to be posting in the spirit of helping, and not being a condescending douche, thanks for the reply.
 
Dolph Lundgren - 3th dan kyokushin, admits Mike Tyson in his prime would have crushed him citing - it's a different world they come from (boxing).

When Dolph had just done Rocky 4, he said he could take Tyson. Now the elder Dolph responds that he was simply young ("drunk") thinking that.
 
spacetime said:
Dolph Lundgren - 3th dan kyokushin, admits Mike Tyson in his prime would have crushed him citing - it's a different world they come from (boxing).

When Dolph had just done Rocky 4, he said he could take Tyson. Now the elder Dolph responds that he was simply young ("drunk") thinking that.
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Tyson would crush most people, that certainly doesn't devalue someone or something.
 
Jukai said:
Tyson would crush most people, that certainly doesn't devalue someone or something.
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No. Mike Tyson would get his butt kicked by an equally skilled Muay Thai figher. He has in fact sparred briefly with one in his prime, and was seriously horrified over how badly those low kicks to the legs hurt. He wouldnt stand a chance, outside of a punchers chance. Boxers arent used to leg kicks and go down after a few blows.

also agains BJJ(gracie) he's hopeless. I quote:


"But there is no way I would have won. I had no idea what was going on with that type of fighting and would’ve been taken by surprise. I would have had to train in that particular art of fighting for that to happen. That’s a particular art. You are not going to go in there with your just your hands, you need to have a great ground game as well. You also need a great wrestling game to be successful. You have to have both skills, wrestling and boxing. That’s the truth.

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/new...o-way-I-would-have-beaten-Royce-Gracie-in-93/
 
Jukai said:
Tyson would crush most people, that certainly doesn't devalue someone or something.
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No. Mike Tyson would get his butt kicked by an equally skilled Muay Thai figher. He has in fact sparred briefly with one in his prime, and was seriously horrified over how badly those low kicks to the legs hurt. He wouldnt stand a chance, outside of a punchers chance.

also agains BJJ(gracie) he's hopeless I quote:


"But there is no way I would have won. I had no idea what was going on with that type of fighting and would’ve been taken by surprise. I would have had to train in that particular art of fighting for that to happen. That’s a particular art. You are not going to go in there with your just your hands, you need to have a great ground game as well. You also need a great wrestling game to be successful. You have to have both skills, wrestling and boxing. That’s the truth.

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/new...o-way-I-would-have-beaten-Royce-Gracie-in-93/
 
I think it does deavaluate if a kyokushin practioner says a fighting system using only their hands against a system employing both (karate) would win. He did not only refer to Tyson as to why he would stand no chance.
 
Ive tried both but just briefly. I liked kyoshkin better.

But Kudo is better than both.
 
spacetime said:
No. Mike Tyson would get his butt kicked by an equally skilled Muay Thai figher. He has in fact sparred briefly with one in his prime, and was seriously horrified over how badly those low kicks to the legs hurt. He wouldnt stand a chance, outside of a punchers chance.

also agains BJJ(gracie) he's hopeless I quote:


"But there is no way I would have won. I had no idea what was going on with that type of fighting and would’ve been taken by surprise. I would have had to train in that particular art of fighting for that to happen. That’s a particular art. You are not going to go in there with your just your hands, you need to have a great ground game as well. You also need a great wrestling game to be successful. You have to have both skills, wrestling and boxing. That’s the truth.

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/new...o-way-I-would-have-beaten-Royce-Gracie-in-93/
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Mike Tyson has been on a run of self-deprecation. All the greats could beat him, he pretty much admits this every chance he gets.

By the way, you're being dishonest about the Dolph Lundgren interview:
MH: You've said that you could've beaten Mike Tyson in a fight. Were you talking about Tyson in his prime, or the Tyson of 2012?

DL: Was I sober when I said that?

MH: I don't know. You said it in 1988.

DL: There you go. (Laughs.)

MH: Also, I got the quote from the Weekly World News.

DL: Are you kidding me?

MH: You're telling me they're not reliable?

DL: For the record, I don't think I could beat Mike Tyson. Maybe if I could use some karate kicks. I could knee him in the head or something. No, even then, it's probably a bad idea. And in his world, in boxing, forget about it, no way. Let's put an end to that rumor right here.
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He doesn't say Tyson would "crush" him. He said he doesn't think he could beat Mike Tyson, but gives himself a slight chance with kicks and knees. It also is the only time in the interview he mentions any boxers, so that WAS the reason he stood no chance.

And I wanted to throw in this part, because it's fucking amazing:
MH: In a battle between you and Iron Mike...

DL: Forget about it. I call uncle.

MH: But your reputation precedes you. There was that incident from a few years ago, when those burglars broke into your house in Spain and saw a photo of you and then got the hell out.

DL: Yeah, right. (Laughs.)

MH: Was that story exaggerated by the press?

DL: It was slightly exaggerated, like everything. They were there, they saw a photo, they did leave. But they did take some of my stuff.

MH: So it was still a robbery?

DL: Yeah. I mean, they returned most of it. They came back later and brought a few things back.

MH: That's ridiculous!

DL: They were amateurs.

MH: Maybe they read the Mike Tyson story?

DL: Maybe. (Laughs.) It sounds a lot better than it was. It's not like they turned on their heels and ran. They just.... thought better of it.
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So, given that you embellished the Lundgren quote, do you mind providing me with the article about Tyson getting low kicked by a Thai boxer?
 
No, I unfortunately don't have the qoute. Do you seriously believe Tyson could, without conditioning his legs for Muay Thai, last more than a minute?

The Lundgren qoute is still strong. Karate fails pretty badly...
 
spacetime said:
No, I unfortunately don't have the qoute. Do you seriously believe Tyson could, without conditioning his legs for Muay Thai, last more than a minute?

The Lundgren qoute is still strong. Karate fails pretty badly...
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I think Tyson would blow through the kicks and aggressively chase the Thai fighter. Leg kicks are a battle of attrition and the Thai stylist would never be able to unload on an aggressive guy like Tyson.
The clinch, on the other hand, would be likely immensely troubling for a guy who liked to stay in the pocket with his arms hunched together and his neck leaned down, ready to be grabbed.

But that is besides the point: The Lundgren quote isn't that strong. He says he doesn't think he can beat Tyson. The man who never made it past the Sweet 16 in the World Tournament doesn't think he can beat the '86-90 Undisputed World Champion. He doesn't say he would get crushed or obliterated, only that he would lose. And somehow you take this as evidence of Karate failure.

Thanks for your opinion, anyway.
 
Lundgren asked if he was drunk when saying that. I think that's basically admitting you would get crushed, without saying it out loud.

I did not intend to misrepresent. Lundgren was still european champion in Kyokushin Karate.
 
Jukai said:
Mike Tyson has been on a run of self-deprecation. All the greats could beat him, he pretty much admits this every chance he gets.

By the way, you're being dishonest about the Dolph Lundgren interview:


He doesn't say Tyson would "crush" him. He said he doesn't think he could beat Mike Tyson, but gives himself a slight chance with kicks and knees. It also is the only time in the interview he mentions any boxers, so that WAS the reason he stood no chance.

And I wanted to throw in this part, because it's fucking amazing:


So, given that you embellished the Lundgren quote, do you mind providing me with the article about Tyson getting low kicked by a Thai boxer?
Click to expand...


spacetime said:
No, I unfortunately don't have the qoute.
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i2OHZE9.gif
 
spacetime said:
Lundgren asked if he was drunk when saying that. I think that's basically admitting you would get crushed, without saying it out loud.

I did not intend to misrepresent. Lundgren was still european champion in Kyokushin Karate.
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And Lundgren did really well in the world tournaments. But Mike Tyson was THE BEST BOXER ON THE PLANET for a long period of time and many people believe that in his prime, he was a top-10 if not top-5 heavyweight of all time in terms of talent and ability.

I do not read him asking if he was drunk as admitting to being crushed. He did not remember ever saying that and it was likely a fake quote to generate publicity for the publication who released it.
 
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