Which is more realistic? Shotokan or Kyokushin?

[Irn Bru Freak]

The techniques used in bunkai are heavily based on your opponent punching you karate style. People don't always throw stepping punches so you can apply.

Actually non of the bunkai we work on have anything to do with other martial artists attacking you, nevermind stepping straight punches. In reality we drill various applications based on non martial artis behaviour, such has football kicks, swinging punches from angles etc. grabs you would expect non trained people to do. eg in my local area the most common attack so for someone to walk up, push with both hands on the chest violently and then right haymaker. For woman, being grabbed by the wrist and threatened with some implement. This is what we view bunkai to be designed to combat.

I do cringe watching bunkai as you describe. We don't, and I don't call any such bunkai self defence. It's not much better than people practising kata and not understanding what they are doing. It's a just a dance if they don't understand or practice the concepts incorporated.

I especially like things like in Empi where you grab your opponent, turn spin-jump throw their imaginary body like a rag doll and end up in knife-hand to block a bo-staff. I might use that next time I am accosted by a guy wielding a bo-staff. Bunkai should be taught but it is not the solution to modern day street confrontation.

It's commonly known in my circle that jumps in Kata refer to throws, for example in Pinian Godan.

Knife hand block is a strike to the neck, after an arm trap and body shift pulling opponent towards you. Hence the stance. Anyone who thinks they should block a baseball bat with a knife hand ... erm should try it.

You're describing mcdojo bunkai of the likes George Dillman would be proud of. If you've been taught that, then I'm not surprised you're sceptical.

I was not looking for praise when I spoke of my lineage. I was demonstrating the different emphasis and disparity in a single style. I was providing context for people who were about to hear others speak incorrectly and you turn them further off with bunkai.

With regards to the styles, you should read more. If you want to take a ethereal position, you will need historical context.

You should read this: Shotokan Karate: A Precise History

It's a very good book.

 

[ChachiKiller]

Actually non of the bunkai we work on have anything to do with other martial artists attacking you, nevermind stepping straight punches. In reality we drill various applications based on non martial artis behaviour, such has football kicks, swinging punches from angles etc. grabs you would expect non trained people to do. eg in my local area the most common attack so for someone to walk up, push with both hands on the chest violently and then right haymaker. For woman, being grabbed by the wrist and threatened with some implement. This is what we view bunkai to be designed to combat.

I do cringe watching bunkai as you describe. We don't, and I don't call any such bunkai self defence. It's not much better than people practising kata and not understanding what they are doing. It's a just a dance if they don't understand or practice the concepts incorporated.


It's commonly known in my circle that jumps in Kata refer to throws, for example in Pinian Godan.

Knife hand block is a strike to the neck, after an arm trap and body shift pulling opponent towards you. Hence the stance. Anyone who thinks they should block a baseball bat with a knife hand ... erm should try it.

You're describing mcdojo bunkai of the likes George Dillman would be proud of. If you've been taught that, then I'm not surprised you're sceptical.


You should read this: Shotokan Karate: A Precise History

It's a very good book.

You are insecure which is why you said something about how I have been taught. The simple fact is that you are speaking of how you are being taught and I am speaking of how I teach. I received shodan in 1983 from first generation Japanese teacher sent by Master Obata to spread karate in the US. I fought in many countries before you were born. Save the lesson as I read the books (many autographed). Also, if want to know history, I ask my teacher.

Bunkai is based on traditional technique and is taught that way because that is the explanation of the movement. How can you cringe? What are you talking about?? What a pompous thing for you to say. There is no other way to interpret bunkai because it is interpretation of kata and kata is based on karate technique. If you deviate from that, you are talking about basic self defense. Also, jumps are not only throws. You are selectively picking techniques that may have modern day application. It is self-defense. This is why you are not impressing people.

 

[td82394]

Face punches aren't allowed in Shotokan, are they? I'm a purple belt though, so that would probably be why I've never seen it. If it was allowed, it'd probably only be reserved for the higher ranks.

As a Shotokan guy, though, I have to say Kyokushin. That sh*t is intense from what I've seen and heard.

 

[SpineBreaker]

Cachi said something that is sort of true - if you honestly think you can answer this question, you don't know much.

If I could sum up how my Shotokan organization teaches with one word, it would be realism, in every possible way. Fists, feet, elbows, knees, teeth. How to face possible death, if you have to. How to feel when your opponent is about to attack. How to control your fist so that you don't have to hurt the guy you're practicing with but you can still complete the movement of your hips and give him a little jolt to let him know he's not fast enough.

And for all I know, there are Kyokushin schools out there that are just as realistic. It's silly to try and say. I thought this was a common rule when it comes to discussing martial arts - it's not the style, it's the teacher.

 

[Strychnine]

Kyokushin. It's shin on shin, bone on bone, and NO MERCY in the dojo!

 

[shinkyoku]

Kyokushin is an offshoot of Shotokan, created in 1964

Actually, it is a offshoot from Shotokan AND Goju ryu. Oyama split from Shotokan (and Funakoshi) in the mid 40ies, and joined Goju ryu (training under SoNei Chu and later Gogen Yamagushi). He split from goju in the early 50ies and started teaching his own (as of yet unnamed) karate 1953. It was formally named kyokushin in 1957. It was the INTERNATIONAL kyokushin ORGANIZATION that was founded 1964.

-SNIP-

Shotokan derived Considering shotokan has about 27 odd kata in total it's interesting to see the core group of kata (that funakoshi taught in 1920s Japan) used as a basis for this style and not the other ones that were added later pre/pst ww2.

• 5 Pinan katas
• Kanku Dai
• Sushiho (Gojushiho)
• Bassai-dai
• Naihanchi

Actually Bassai and Naihanchi are only practiced in one of the many kyokushin factions that formed after the original organization fractured after Oyamas death.
These two katas was removed from the pre kyokushin style oyama taught, and was only reintroduced into one of the kyokushin factions a few years ago. Even many outside of Japan in that organization has not seen them yet.

 

[shinkyoku]

Shotokan has lowkicks, knees, elbows and dirty tricks.

Kyokushin has facepunches, dirty tricks and evasive footwork.

IPPON SHOBU -the competition system usually used in Shotokan- does not allow lowkicks, knees elbows or dirty tricks.

KNOCKDOWN -the competition system usually used in kyokushin- does not allow punches, or elbows to the face, or dirty tricks or clinches, and they discourage avoiding combat or retreating.

Differ between the arts and the sport usually associated with them.

This is kyokushin fighting:



but this is kyokushin fighting too -just with different rules:

 

[Irn Bru Freak]

You are insecure which is why you said something about how I have been taught. The simple fact is that you are speaking of how you are being taught and I am speaking of how I teach. I received shodan in 1983 from first generation Japanese teacher sent by Master Obata to spread karate in the US. I fought in many countries before you were born. Save the lesson as I read the books (many autographed). Also, if want to know history, I ask my teacher.

Jesus you're defensive. I wasn't insulting you or your teacher.

Bunkai is based on traditional technique and is taught that way because that is the explanation of the movement. How can you cringe? What are you talking about?? What a pompous thing for you to say. There is no other way to interpret bunkai because it is interpretation of kata and kata is based on karate technique. If you deviate from that, you are talking about basic self defense.

I cringe at nonsense bunkai. Like using knife hand to block a bo. In my opinion, this is non sense bunkai developed by people who dont understand the kata. Do you really think a 5 foot 2 okinawan guy could defect a real bo with the side of his hand?

A lot of Japanese Karate teachers, and indeed Okinawan teachers didnt have a clue about the bunkai simply because they weren't taught it. Did Itosu write down the bunkai in a manual? No. Did people interpret his kata incorrectly? Yes. Did teachers teach their students useless bunkai? Yes. Did people simply accept without questioning what their teachers told them? Yes. You gave an example of that nonsense bunkai. I cringe at bunkai that doesn't work with noncompliant partners, and in realistic environments. In my view kata is made up of 50%+ throws/ grappling/ trapping/ lock techniques. In a lot of JKA videos from 1950-60s you simply dont see any of it in their bunkai. Where's it gone?

Also, jumps are not only throws. You are selectively picking techniques that may have modern day application. It is self-defense. This is why you are not impressing people.

Modern day application? Are there traditional applications? Human bodies still work in the same way as they did 400 years ago... why would high impact strikes, grappling, close range strikes, throws & takedowns, ground fighting, chokes & strangles, arm locks, leg & ankle locks, neck wrenches, finger locks and wrist locks from Kata that worked 400 years ago not work now?

 

[Irn Bru Freak]

Actually, it is a offshoot from Shotokan AND Goju ryu. Oyama split from Shotokan (and Funakoshi) in the mid 40ies, and joined Goju ryu (training under SoNei Chu and later Gogen Yamagushi). He split from goju in the early 50ies and started teaching his own (as of yet unnamed) karate 1953. It was formally named kyokushin in 1957. It was the INTERNATIONAL kyokushin ORGANIZATION that was founded 1964.

Thanks for the correction ! Didn't realise there was so much Goju in KK.

Actually Bassai and Naihanchi are only practiced in one of the many kyokushin factions that formed after the original organization fractured after Oyamas death.
These two katas was removed from the pre kyokushin style oyama taught, and was only reintroduced into one of the kyokushin factions a few years ago. Even many outside of Japan in that organization has not seen them yet.

Interesting, is there a common set of kata for KK then?

I have sparred with a few KK people at a local Thai boxing place, but never chatted about their view of the world.

 

[Irn Bru Freak]

Back to the topic of the post ...

In my view this type of training prepares you most for realistic street fighting in karate.

How to Spar for the Street: Part 1 by Iain Abernethy | Iain Abernethy
How to Spar for the Street: Part 2 by Iain Abernethy | Iain Abernethy
How to Spar for the Street: Part 3 by Iain Abernethy | Iain Abernethy

Since KK and Shotokan share a lot of core kata, the most realistic style comes down to the training methodology of the kata, rather than the sport aspects of the sparring.

Amusingly enough Iain practices Wado. Style means nothing.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Kyokushin is an offshoot of Shotokan, created in 1964

Oyama trained under Funakoshi (who brought karate from Okinawa to Japan) and in the 1950s moved to full contact competitions and away from JKA Karate.

Realisation is not found in sparring or any sport contest, full contact or not. However as has been mentioned being able to take a hit and understand how to deliver high impact strikes against targets is an asset.

The key in your question is not, what sport is better (which is opinion really) but what is realistic.

Realism in karate comes from the katas. Not learning them for a competiton, but leanring how to break them down and drill them like a thai boxer would a round kick. ie continously and against resistence. Main Kyokushin katas are:

Shotokan derived Considering shotokan has about 27 odd kata in total it's interesting to see the core group of kata (that funakoshi taught in 1920s Japan) used as a basis for this style and not the other ones that were added later pre/pst ww2.

• 5 Pinan katas
• Kanku Dai
• Sushiho (Gojushiho)
• Bassai-dai
• Naihanchi

Goju dervied. Brought into Kyokushin after split from Shotokan.

• Gekisai Dai
• Gekisai Sho
• Tensho
• Sanchin
• Saifa
• Seienchin
• Seipai
• Yantsu
• Tsuki no kata

Since the kata's are shared from shotokan and goju styles of karate and you're looking for a realistic it's my view that you should look for a class, either shotokan or Kyokushin that teaches the bunkai properly, with non compaint partners and repeated in some form of drill set, instead of focusing on what is better basic training\sparring methodology is.

ie someting like this: Naihanchi is found in both styles. What you want is someone who can show you bunkai like the below.

YouTube - Naihanchi bunkai / Effective self-defence applications

And most importantly, a class like this, or princeples similar to these:

YouTube - www.martialartstv.com Instructional Kata Based Sparring

We're talking about reality and street confrontation, right ?

If so, then the black belt dude with blue gloves @ 1:15 in your last vid is the reason why I would put my money on 3 months of boxing experience over years of shotokan.

As your video demonstrate, it's not because you train punches to the head that you train them in an effective way.

 

[ChachiKiller]

Bunkai!!!!!!!!!

 

[spacetime]

More realistic - Kyokushin. But Shotokan practitioners probably sport superior technique, as that's what they focus on mainly - kata, bunkai, e.t.c

Or am I wrong about this? I have seen some full contact karatekas and their technique deliverys are relatively poor - Semmi Schilt, Dolph Lundgren, e.t.c

Shotokan point fighters more fluid and fast, "clean". But not as heavy guys, so I might be unfair.

 

[FictionIsReal]

In a street fight kyokushin, in MMA shotokan.

 

[JohnSouth]

Somebody from 2010 said Karate was effective in feudal Japan.

Most of these unarmed martial arts are completely unproven and nobody used them in war.

The only thing proven to be effective in feudal Japan was a mercenary with a gun or sword.

 

[spacetime]

Somebody from 2010 said Karate was effective in feudal Japan.

Most of these unarmed martial arts are completely unproven and nobody used them in war.

The only thing proven to be effective in feudal Japan was a mercenary with a gun or sword.

There was a karateka finalist in point fighting (many years ago) famous for roaming the streets and beating the living daylights out of bouncers, security guards all being boxers or Muay Thai guys. This karateka did not study anything other than Karate and was a finalist in world championship events. He was a troubled individual needless to say, but he could fight for real. His style was not even full contact karate - but the Shotokan style tradition...

 

[Babba]

loled.

 

[surfer dude]

Kyokushin. It's not even close.

I hold a sandan in Shotokan, and I endorse this pov.

Machida's dad said it best, Shotokan is exercise, when they want to practice fighting they do Machida Karate do.

I have trained with 3 different Shotokan groups here in central Florida, and have yet to have any of them do jiyu kumite while I was there. The only yudansha we did any with were the ones we invited to our dojo. And, their fighting was one dimensional and uninspired. It was evident they did not do much of it in their dojos. Yet here they were, black belts in the system.

The one redeeming quality of the system is it has the capacity to be a good blunt force trauma delivery system. And around here, they mostly suck at that part. Cavorting about in pajamas aka LARPing would be far too accurate an appraisal, sad to say. It is a far cry from how they train it in Japan.

 

[surfer dude]

More realistic - Kyokushin. But Shotokan practitioners probably sport superior technique, as that's what they focus on mainly - kata, bunkai, e.t.c

Or am I wrong about this? I have seen some full contact karatekas and their technique deliverys are relatively poor - Semmi Schilt, Dolph Lundgren, e.t.c

Shotokan point fighters more fluid and fast, "clean". But not as heavy guys, so I might be unfair.

Shotokan it is not a good big man karate. I say that being a shotokaner the size of JDS.

The "superior technique" part I think you are way off on. As I would equate superior to effective. And KK and the other full contact systems win that one easy.

 

[surfer dude]

In a street fight kyokushin, in MMA shotokan.

GSP has outperformed Machida or any other shotokan practitioner. It is also rather pointless to debate how much of it GSP has used, because he credits KK for his success, even his takedown timing.

Oh, and here is typical shotokan kumite
If it looks one dimensional, that's because it is.